civil war buckle?

[kylews8973]

Found this in East Tx. I know it's a buckle of some sort..any more into would be awesome

 

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[kuger]

what is that mark...back side lower right side?I have one with three stars stamped in the bridge,and Ironman has the only other known example(that we have seen)we have yet to see a Toungue with the same stamps either.I just checked my measurements,and they are precisely the same as yours.There is a Pre C.W. Firemans buckle that features this same Laurel Leaf wreath,net buckle,has an Eagle on a Fire Pumper Wagon.There is also a toungue with a cast "T",bar and stamped brass center disc with an Eagle,....Pre - C.W.also as said many of the State buckles,and many of the Police buckles of the 1870's-

 

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[kylews8973]

what is that mark...back side lower right side?-

It was nothing. My 16 month old was holding it and his hands were sticky and got a small bit of gunk on it.

 

[kuger]

It was nothing. My 16 month old was holding it and his hands were sticky and got a small bit of gunk on it.

...not that it would have meant much,its just that these cast buckles were often bench stamped,and as said,my example has three stars on the bridge,and we know of stars stamped on the belt loops......always on the lookout for different stamps

I wish I could tell you somebody was going to be able to tell you exactly what tongue went to this,but they cant......just too many types that used that pattern.The tongues are much easier to provide accurate info on

 

[kylews8973]

...not that it would have meant much,its just that these cast buckles were often bench stamped,and as said,my example has three stars on the bridge,and we know of stars stamped on the belt loops......always on the lookout for different stamps

I wish I could tell you somebody was going to be able to tell you exactly what tongue went to this,but they cant......just too many types that used that pattern.The tongues are much easier to provide accurate info on

Ok so here's my question: when people find these things do they usually also find the tongue that goes along with it? Also do you know anything about the rivet I mentioned with the anchor on it? Also is the buckle worthless (monetarily) without the tongue? Not that it matter much, because i'm just a nut when it comes to collecting stuff like this (I still get giddy when I find an old war nickel or a silver dime) just curious.

 

[kuger]

Ok so here's my question: when people find these things do they usually also find the tongue that goes along with it? Also do you know anything about the rivet I mentioned with the anchor on it? Also is the buckle worthless (monetarily) without the tongue? Not that it matter much, because i'm just a nut when it comes to collecting stuff like this (I still get giddy when I find an old war nickel or a silver dime) just curious.

...These type buckles are my obsession,and I am very fortunate to be close friends with some of the most foremost experts there is on them.........it is not common to find both halves together,but its not uncommon for a person to match a tongue that may fit it,that was originally a "match",the other half may be at that site....maybe somebody else found it....it may be a short distance to a great distance away....I have seen all circumstance'.As far as value...monetary....dont underestimate!!!The CS type buckle are BIG money,and there are a lot of guys in the reverse situation as you are!You have to remember,the guy with the tongue to a say...$6000 buckle (complete) would be wanting that wreath pretty bad...if it fit and was a measurement match

 

[kuger]

....oh,as far as the rivet...it seems to me I have seen them with an Anchor,but I can not tell ya much about em.I do know there is a rivet with a five point star,that we see come from 1860- sites reportedly produced by the Storm Co. which made sword belts(I beleive)amongst other leather harness etc

 

[HutSiteDigger]

Finding just the wreath keeper is almost a nightmare it really plays with your mind because you spend forever trying to find the tongue and guessing what it could have been like Kuger is saying it could be a short or long distance away the person or soldier could have kept the tongue or thrown the tongue as far as a long bomb football pass or the tongue could have been in the exact same spot but somehow or someway got moved by someone,farming equipment or got draggyed down deeper into the soil or got moved over by an iron piece and your MDer only picks up the iron and not the buckle. So many scenarios and I myself and others like Kuger have gone through the same experience in trying to find the tongue so the nightmare can go away!

 

[kylews8973]

The place I found this on was on my parent's land. The old cabin I was telling you about from the 1800's was in this large open field surrounded all around it with pine/oak trees and it was just situated in such a way that nobody just ever went back there. no nearby neighbors, just the woods. In fact, we had no idea that there was ever a log cabin back there until one day when I was just a kid this guy came and disc'd it all up. Afterwards we went down there to see if any arrowheads popped up from the ground and we started noticing pieces of these old looking dishes and other various things like an old horse bit and all kinds of pieces of old old farm equipment. Many years later I buy this cheap metal detector and find square head nail after squarehead nail and all kinds of stuff like that, then I buy a Garrett AT Pro and the very first thing i pulled out of the ground was this very buckle

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Thanks for the backview photos and measurements. Note the vertical narrow raised ridge where the beltloop's bar joins the wreath. Also note that the bar projects a little bit into the circular "gutter" in the back of the wreath. On your behalf, I looked through every "backview" photo of Confederate-manufactured tongue-&-wreath 2-piece buckle in the extensive book "Confederate Belt Buckles & Plates" by Steve Mullinax. I found no exact match for your wreath part. However, I did find matches among several 1850's State Militia buckles manufactured by a northerm bucklemaker. For example, one of the matches is a Georgia State Seal buckle, shown as plate #207, page 116. But there are also some non-Military matches.

Unless you can find the missing "tongue" part of the 2-piece buckle, we'll never know for certain whether your wreath part is from a Military buckle, or not. Still...as Kuger mentioned, a collector who owns a tongue part and wants to buy a correct-fitting match-up would pay several hundred dollars for your wreath part, if yours is an "appropriate," correctly-fitting match for his part.

I sais "appropriate in the above statement because some buckles have a flowery decoration on the rectangular belt-loop. Your wreath's belt-loop is plain. So, yours would not be an "appropriate" match for a tongue part which has decorations on its belt-loop.

If financial considerations are important for you, I recommend "pounding" the area where you found the wreath as thoroughly as possible before you give up on finding the tongue and sell the wreath. Having both parts would raise the dollar-value quite significantly. Good luck to you!

 

[kylews8973]

Thanks for the backview photos and measurements. Note the vertical narrow raised ridge where the beltloop's bar joins the wreath. Also note that the bar projects a little bit into the circular "gutter" in the back of the wreath. On your behalf, I looked through every "backview" photo of Confederate-manufactured tongue-&-wreath 2-piece buckle in the extensive book "Confederate Belt Buckles & Plates" by Steve Mullinax. I found no exact match for your wreath part. However, I did find matches among several 1850's State Militia buckles manufactured by a northerm bucklemaker. For example, one of the matches is a Georgia State Seal buckle, shown as plate #207, page 116. But there are also some non-Military matches.

Unless you can find the missing "tongue" part of the 2-piece buckle, we'll never know for certain whether your wreath part is from a Military buckle, or not. Still...as Kuger mentioned, a collector who owns a tongue part and wants to buy a correct-fitting match-up would pay several hundred dollars for your wreath part, if yours is an "appropriate," correctly-fitting match for his part.

I sais "appropriate in the above statement because some buckles have a flowery decoration on the rectangular belt-loop. Your wreath's belt-loop is plain. So, yours would not be an "appropriate" match for a tongue part which has decorations on its belt-loop.

If financial considerations are important for you, I recommend "pounding" the area where you found the wreath as thoroughly as possible before you give up on finding the tongue and sell the wreath. Having both parts would raise the dollar-value quite significantly. Good luck to you!

I see exactly what you're talking about in regard to the back part where the beltloop part meets the centerpiece and it not being flush with the edge! Thanks for pointing that out man, would've never thought to look there.

So you're saying no CS buckles have that design? It's just so weird because i'm looking at some of the CS buckles and their wreath design and it's dead on with mine. Did other manufacturers copy the wreath to the T and had the slight difference that you pointed out on the back?

 

[kylews8973]

Oh and p.s. thanks a ton for looking all that info up man! I can't believe how fast you guys figure this stuff out!

 

[NGE]

Too bad you don't have a Minelab Etrac, you could set it up in TTF (two tone ferrous) and dig only the high pitched sounds ie. copper, brass, aluminum, silver. totally eliminate iron....nge

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Kylews8973 wrote:
> Did other manufacturers copy the wreath to the T and had the slight difference
> that you pointed out on the back?

Yes. In my prior reply, I made specific mention of the page 116 buckle in the Mullinax book because it says "This type of [1850s] laurel wreath served as a pattern for the wartime Richmond [CS buckle] wreath." Meaning, the Confederates copied the laurel wreath on the 1850s buckle's front, but there are subtle "manufacturing differences" in the buckle's structure, as seen in the backview photos of CS buckles and the 1850s Northern-made ones.

> I can't believe how fast you guys figure this stuff out!

Some of us What-Is-It forum volunteer ID-helpers have been doing relic-ID/authentification for decades in our offline personal lives (check my Profile's "About me" info). So, we often either already know the answer, or know what book to find the answer in. It's not due to having a high IQ... it is the result of lots of study. Anybody here can become what we are, if he/she is willing to do the diligent studying.

 

[Bryanhashemi]

I think cannonballguy is great. very polite and sticks to the fact. Kuger has some good info also but is rude at times. read beginning reply to another post on this thread. Kuger..theres no need to be rude or sarcastic. Just state what you know and thats that. thanks!

 

[DirtyMike]

Not trying to be a trouble maker... But even though you don't have an exact identification yet. Regardless, in my book a wreath is a wreath and it's a good find. That being said I do hope you can properly identify this. And the guys & gals on here is who I go to for help because they are awesome. A little bit more of battle of the brains and they will find out what the Tounge part was. Well done so far guys. Now if all these experts just play nice and put there brains "together"... This is a great site for identifying relics! Can't wait to see what you guys come up with. Sounds like a challenge... Who can find it first? And not to be overshadowed, congrats on the wreath! Great find!

 

[kylews8973]

As far as sarcasm goes, sometimes that can be difficult to detect in a setting such as this. Kuger seemed pretty helpful as did Cannonballman.

Doesn't matter to me whether or not it's a CS or a state seal or a state militia or whatever....Highly doubt I'd sell it either way. I just would like to know the history behind it.

 

[kuger]

I see exactly what you're talking about in regard to the back part where the beltloop part meets the centerpiece and it not being flush with the edge! Thanks for pointing that out man, would've never thought to look there.

So you're saying no CS buckles have that design? It's just so weird because i'm looking at some of the CS buckles and their wreath design and it's dead on with mine. Did other manufacturers copy the wreath to the T and had the slight difference that you pointed out on the back?

...Several buckles I mentioned above which use this same wreath,were manufactured for other than Military use........like the Firemans buckle which I mentioned.The Tongue and wreath style buckle was Very popular during the mid 19th Century in the civilian capacity as well as Militia,and Military.The first form of advertising on clothing was on stamped brass tongue and wreaths

 

[kuger]

I think cannonballguy is great. very polite and sticks to the fact. Kuger has some good info also but is rude at times. read beginning reply to another post on this thread. Kuger..theres no need to be rude or sarcastic. Just state what you know and thats that. thanks!

Excuse me but where was I rude or sarcastic?I asked a question....and I am entitled to do that,I do not feel it was unwarranted,out of place or rude.I take it serious to give as accurate of info as possible here....there was a whole lot going on in the US before during and after the Great Civil War,and when everything people post .....someone jumps in with "Thats C.W.!!",when in fact there is no evidence....or information given to lead one to that conclusion that is giving mis leading in accurate information....I am sorry that this offends you,but I call it the way I see it,and that is me......if you dont like it,you are more than welcome to ignore me.Thanks for the advice though

 

[Bryanhashemi]

i respect your advice and wisdom on things but all im saying is that you dont have to down someone for thinking its civil war. I understand that it gets said alot...but just state the facts (which you know well). I do look forward to hearing your responses on future items i will post on sunday! Lets start over shall we? --Bryan

 

[Muddyhandz]

Hmmmn, since Kuger is so rude and sarcastic, maybe he shouldn't offer his experience at all.

All that time and energy he gives people without being paid a dime....

So rude!

Would you like to take his place?

You sound like my ex-wife who wanted everything sugar coated.