Cave of gold bars

[Tom_in_CA]

... not to believe everything you see in print

Bingo. And those authors would include actual factual things. Thus there could be an old photo , or an old newspaper clipping, or allusions to actual events and dates. But the would launch into the "it has been said that...." blah blah And ... humorously, the "faithful" (who eventually admit the legends are mostly telephone game silly-ness), will tell you: "It's just a matter of separating the fact from fiction". The problem with this statement is: That IF THERE IS NO TREASURE there, then ..... it doesn't matter HOW much of the rest of the story is true. Doh!

The best way to find caches is not go chasing the ghost-story legend telephone game stuff. It would be to simply get a 2-box machine and hunt old ruins and ghost-towsny sites. Because a 2-box machine can't find anything smaller than a soda can. Thus the perfect discriminator for pesky individual coins, nails, tabs, etc.... There was a lot of caches found in the ghost towns of the desert SW back in the early days of md'ing (mid 1960s to mid 1970s) more-so than now. EVEN THOUGH our machines today are FAR more sensitive and FAR more capable. The reason they found so many more caches in those days, is that those lousy BFO's and early TRs were doing good just to get a coin to 2" deep. Yet they were *fully capable* of getting jar and toaster sized objects. Thus by their very nature, they were superior cache hunters

Everyone today passes "those durned hubcabs" or "that durned soda can". Whereas yesteryear machines were ONLY capable of finding those big items.

 

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[audigger53]

Well ask yourself a few questions then:

1) why would ANY gold producing region "accept more gold". After all, they mine it themselves, eh ? Yet I can tell you for a fact, that if you show up at EVEN THE MOST ABUNDANT gold and silver producing regions of the world, and walk in to ANY store to buy something, guess what ? They will hold out their hand waiting for you to pay for your goods with money.

Your not listening. Philippines was silver, no gold. The mine was in use up to and during WWII. The Japanesse mined the shaft with dynamite and blew it when they left. Shattered the entire shaft. History, Fact.

2) If we both agree that trade good were the objective of those manila galleon trips (spices, porcelin, silk, wax, etc....) then ... how do you think they were paid for ? Obviously they were paid for with $$ that was coming OVER there. And returning with the trade goods.

The "Trade Goods" were secondary. The silver was used as ballast for the ship instead of rocks. They would take it to Panama and port it across to the other side for shipment to Spain.

There is a local nautical maritime historian expert/author/speaker here in Monterey, CA . I've rubbed shoulders with him several times. And I'm getting my info. from him (as well as the common sense buy/sell/trade ramifications he pointed out). He said that *at best* there would be a single pay-box lunch-box sized "purse" that the captain might have in his particular quarters. But no, it was not at all like the "Mel Fisher" type stuff, where the SOLE PURPOSE of the ship's travel was solely and distinctly the transfer of riches from one country to another.

Ok believe him and not historical facts about the Philippines. Your choice, I'm stopping now. No Problem.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... The "Trade Goods" were secondary. The silver was used as ballast for the ship instead of rocks. They would take it to Panama and port it across to the other side for shipment to Spain......

I will run this past my maritime curator friend, and see what he says. Not that "he knows everything", but .... he's a renowned sought after respected speaker on the subject. So ... I didn't previously have reason to question him And a cursory look at any history on the manila trade galleons does seem to indicate that they went over to "shop", and returned with tangible goods. Not more silver. But I will look into what you're saying.

Here's another matter: The ships were not said to have stopped on the coast of CA. Supposedly once they sighted the west coast, they turned south to the mother country. Rather than risk getting close to rocky dangerous shores.

As an example of how this seems to be true: Once Monterey port was settled (1770s), the galleons were required, by Spanish govt. to stop. Yet ... to my knowledge, only 1 or 2 ever did. The rest elected to pay any penalties and high-tale it back to Mexico. The era ended in 1815, which means that 45-ish years had transpired (with up to 2 galleons per year making the trip, hence 80 to 90-ish galleons) with only 1 or 2 recorded to have pulled in to Monterey ? Thus ... even assuming they WERE "laden with silver", they certainly weren't dropping it off here. Doh!

 

[audigger53]

Well not all of them would have been bringing silver from the Philippines, so those would have trade goods. Spices, tea, and silk come to mind as well as opium. Anything that the captain could turn a profit on. Just like later when the "Boston men" started trading with China and Japan.

 

[markmar]

BlackLine

Nice pics and videos . Congrats for your attempt to find the Walter Perrine cave of gold bars . I believe you were close but not very close to that spot .
The homework that deducer wrote , don't contains only the clues from the written story and what your intuition says , but the " hidden " clues ( those that the story teller didn't told but we can guess them from the area he was searching ) and the logical clues ( the landmarks which could fit with the description of the cave ) .

For example :
From the " hidden " clues of this story we can understand with approximation the altitude and the distance from the Weaver's Needle .
And from the logical clues we can assume how the cave is above a spring and the landmark ( where is situated )should to accept a construction of a ( very ? ) long hallway .

 

[BlackLine]

i dont want to convince anybody that there is a treasure or where it is. i know that some of you (like joe or earnie) had search for it serious. i dont know the facts but maybe this can help them or you to follow the signs and find any proof of the treasure. maybe i get the chance to be back in october to the rendevouzs then i will go out with all of you and finish what i began.

deducer... there is no difference between a good and a bad treasure hunter. both live the dream on their own way. there are only a handful of people who have ever find something. imo we are all seekers. and a seeker just need a theory. cause you cant find anything on your table. be out and enjoy what youre doing. and if i/you dont find anything. you have the memory. if you think that then i am a bad treasure hunter = looser. then hey i am a looooser and im proud

 

[Tom_in_CA]

couldn't those be just random landcape features? Seems that if you picked ANY spot on google satellite, and applied enough imagination , and connected lines through various points, you could draw all sorts of interesting shapes. A bunny. A smiley face, etc..... No ?

 

[BlackLine]

couldn't those be just random landcape features? Seems that if you picked ANY spot on google satellite, and applied enough imagination , and connected lines through various points, you could draw all sorts of interesting shapes. A bunny. A smiley face, etc..... No ?

imo NO - one map possible two unlikely three impossible
just my opinion

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... just my opinion

Ok. And have you ever heard of a treasure being found, where the "clues" were cryptogram un-canny satellite/map/lines like this ?

 

[BlackLine]

Ok. And have you ever heard of a treasure being found, where the "clues" were cryptogram un-canny satellite/map/lines like this ?

and thats your reason why it cant be?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

and thats your reason why it cant be?

The question is not how it CAN'T be., the question is how CAN it be. Unusual claims need unusual proof. And it seems as if you are shifting the burden of proof the wrong way?

 

[markmar]

BlackLine

About the Manuel ( lust for gold ) map . You have to know how looking west , the marked cactus was to the right of Weaver's Needle . Maybe the map should be reversed , like the most Peralta's maps .
In the Magill's map you can see the place of the marked cactus .

 

[audigger53]

The best way to find caches is not go chasing the ghost-story legend telephone game stuff. It would be to simply get a 2-box machine and hunt old ruins and ghost-towsny sites. Because a 2-box machine can't find anything smaller than a soda can. Thus the perfect discriminator for pesky individual coins, nails, tabs, etc.... There was a lot of caches found in the ghost towns of the desert SW back in the early days of md'ing (mid 1960s to mid 1970s) more-so than now. EVEN THOUGH our machines today are FAR more sensitive and FAR more capable. The reason they found so many more caches in those days, is that those lousy BFO's and early TRs were doing good just to get a coin to 2" deep. Yet they were *fully capable* of getting jar and toaster sized objects. Thus by their very nature, they were superior cache hunters

Everyone today passes "those durned hubcabs" or "that durned soda can". Whereas yesteryear machines were ONLY capable of finding those big items.[/QUOTE]

Question for you. Have you ever had a 2 box "Ring like a Bell"? I had a location in my back yard that was between 2 trees that dead center between them a 2 box would ring like a Church Bell. Wife would let me cut through the root ball between the trees to find it. Tried going in from the side and at 2 & 1/2 feet hit hard pan, so hard it was like concrete and then hit the root ball 3 feet out. Never found anyone that found a gallon sized or bigger object with a 2 box to have it ring that loud. Has anyone here had that? I sold the house when I had to move for work, but didn't tell them as they didn't meet my asking price. It was on the market for over 6 years and sold at a lose. Still made money but not what I wanted from it. The friend that had it also had a regular metal detector. One was a Garret and the other a White. Don't remember now which was the 2 box. 20 some years ago.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....Question for you. Have you ever had a 2 box "Ring like a Bell"? I had a location in my back yard that was between 2 trees that dead center between them a 2 box would ring like a Church Bell. Wife would let me cut through the root ball between the trees to find it. Tried going in from the side and at 2 & 1/2 feet hit hard pan, so hard it was like concrete and then hit the root ball 3 feet out. Never found anyone that found a gallon sized or bigger object with a 2 box to have it ring that loud. Has anyone here had that? I sold the house when I had to move for work, but didn't tell them as they didn't meet my asking price. It was on the market for over 6 years and sold at a lose. Still made money but not what I wanted from it. The friend that had it also had a regular metal detector. One was a Garret and the other a White. Don't remember now which was the 2 box. 20 some years ago.

au-digger, I'm having trouble honing down your question. Are you asking about tones on a 2-box detector ? If so, what brand/model ? And "ringing like a bell" is a tone/sound specific question that will be impossible to answer in printed text. Since such things are sound-specific, and no amount of reading text can convey "sounds".

Or were you asking about real estate and the buying/selling of your house ?

Or were you asking "regular" detectors and were comparing Whites vs Garrett ?

Or were you asking about the treasure potential of the signal you got in your back yard ?

Please clarify.

 

[captain1965]

Gemini 3 FTW

 

[markmar]

BlackLine

Again , about the Manuel ( Lust for gold ) map .
IMO , this map is not for the Walter Perrine cave of gold and not for the LDM . This map is a view to south and is for a mine in the south end of the Black Top . Actually , is for the mine that the treasure symbols ( in your pics ) from the Black Top are to use for .

Don't go to look for this mine . Some guys found it long time ago , but before they been able to uncover it totally and in their absence , someone who didn't know about it , just blasted some tons of rocks on it . The true story :

" Gerald and I were flying recon over the Superstition Mountains. We were particularly interested in the south end of Black Top Mesa near the Spanish Hieroglyphics. We needed to know if there was any hidden caves or ledges on the cliff face.
We made one low pass over the mesa doing a right bank which let me look out the passenger’s window almost straight down to the ground. It was an odd sensation. As we made a second circle, I spotted an opening and was looking straight down a shaft. It was between to ledges and some bushes had grown up in front of the shaft to the point were You had to be in the perfect position in the air to see it. A little higher and the shaft would be covered by the overhang of the ledge,. A little lower and the bushes covered it up. I thought for sure we could find it.
The next weekend Gerald and I hiked into Black Top and climbed to the Hieroglyphics. From there, we made it over to the south end of the mesa to the cliffs. We spent several hours looking for the shaft. Finally giving up we took an old air matrice from an abandoned camp and wrapped it around a bush for a marker.
The next day we flew over the area again. The air matrice was only 20 yards from the shaft..
The following weekend we hiked back to the area and this time we were successful in locating the shaft. Keep in mind that this shaft was located in the rock cliffs just below the basalt top of the mesa. We cleared the shaft of brush and started digging. It was easy dirt. Very little rock. We were about six feet down when we found charcoal. We were very excited. We dug another five feet before we realized it was going to be dark soon and we had to be back out of the mountains for previouos engagements with our wives.
We scattered the dirt the best we could as to not attract attention to any other treasure hunters. Then we carefully placed the brush back over the entrance to conseal it. We had to hustle out of the mountains, but we made it back to the First Water Trailhead about an hour after dark.
The next weekend we brought re-enforcements. My brother and Step father came with us to provide security while we dug. But when we got there, things had changed. Someone had set a blast in the basalt rocks above the shaft and slid the entire section of mountain down on the shaft. It was a hopeless case to try to clear the rubble.
So there you have it. There is a shaft near the Spanish Hieroglyphics. Is there anything in it? Who knows? But it was very easy digging in a solid rock cave. Almost as if someone had backfilled it on purpose.
Who blasted the rubble? I can’t prove it, but I believe it was Crazy Jake. I don’t think he did it on purpose. I don’t think he even knew there was a shaft below. " .

 

[azdave35]

BlackLine

Again , about the Manuel ( Lust for gold ) map .
IMO , this map is not for the Walter Perrine cave of gold and not for the LDM . This map is a view to south and is for a mine in the south end of the Black Top . Actually , is for the mine that the treasure symbols ( in your pics ) from the Black Top are to use for .

Don't go to look for this mine . Some guys found it long time ago , but before they been able to uncover it totally and in their absence , someone who didn't know about it , just blasted some tons of rocks on it . The true story :

" Gerald and I were flying recon over the Superstition Mountains. We were particularly interested in the south end of Black Top Mesa near the Spanish Hieroglyphics. We needed to know if there was any hidden caves or ledges on the cliff face.
We made one low pass over the mesa doing a right bank which let me look out the passenger’s window almost straight down to the ground. It was an odd sensation. As we made a second circle, I spotted an opening and was looking straight down a shaft. It was between to ledges and some bushes had grown up in front of the shaft to the point were You had to be in the perfect position in the air to see it. A little higher and the shaft would be covered by the overhang of the ledge,. A little lower and the bushes covered it up. I thought for sure we could find it.
The next weekend Gerald and I hiked into Black Top and climbed to the Hieroglyphics. From there, we made it over to the south end of the mesa to the cliffs. We spent several hours looking for the shaft. Finally giving up we took an old air matrice from an abandoned camp and wrapped it around a bush for a marker.
The next day we flew over the area again. The air matrice was only 20 yards from the shaft..
The following weekend we hiked back to the area and this time we were successful in locating the shaft. Keep in mind that this shaft was located in the rock cliffs just below the basalt top of the mesa. We cleared the shaft of brush and started digging. It was easy dirt. Very little rock. We were about six feet down when we found charcoal. We were very excited. We dug another five feet before we realized it was going to be dark soon and we had to be back out of the mountains for previouos engagements with our wives.
We scattered the dirt the best we could as to not attract attention to any other treasure hunters. Then we carefully placed the brush back over the entrance to conseal it. We had to hustle out of the mountains, but we made it back to the First Water Trailhead about an hour after dark.
The next weekend we brought re-enforcements. My brother and Step father came with us to provide security while we dug. But when we got there, things had changed. Someone had set a blast in the basalt rocks above the shaft and slid the entire section of mountain down on the shaft. It was a hopeless case to try to clear the rubble.
So there you have it. There is a shaft near the Spanish Hieroglyphics. Is there anything in it? Who knows? But it was very easy digging in a solid rock cave. Almost as if someone had backfilled it on purpose.
Who blasted the rubble? I can’t prove it, but I believe it was Crazy Jake. I don’t think he did it on purpose. I don’t think he even knew there was a shaft below. " .

marius....i have read that story before...do you by chance remember where you got it from?

 

[deducer]

marius....i have read that story before...do you by chance remember where you got it from?

Dave,

From the Lost Dutchman Newsletters edited by Mitch Waite. Sept, 2006.

Marius also posted it around 2 years ago on the "heap of proof" thread.

 

[azdave35]

Dave,

From the Lost Dutchman Newsletters edited by Mitch Waite. Sept, 2006.

Marius also posted it around 2 years ago on the "heap of proof" thread.

has anyone seen mitch lately?....

 

[audigger53]

Or were you asking about the treasure potential of the signal you got in your back yard ?

Have you ever heard a 2 box go off with a deep Bong, like a church bell?

I believe it was a Garret 2 box.