Cave of gold bars

[sdcfia]

Joe,

When I shared the contents of those emails in 2010, you didn't mention having any problems with me sharing them then?


Steve,

First, you really should come to the Rendezvous this year.

Kenworthy Bars, they are absolutely not part of anything recovered by Rose. The hole the Kenworthy Ingots came out of is still visible. My friend in Tumacacori showed it to me years ago. We can put that one to bed right away. Regarding the Kenworthy Bars, the only thing I have heard that is even slightly at odds with Kenworthy's Story, is that the bars were located by someone else, and recovered by Kenworthy. I believe the first mention of 1028 bars was from an issue of the old "Treasure Hunter Confidential" Newsletter. Not 100% though.

View attachment 1476731

As for Ron's Bars, I really don't recall ever being part of a conversation where their origins were anything other than Jesuit were discussed (but I have been part of so many conversations about so many different stories, on several forums, I can't swear to it. HAHAHA).

Gettin' Old Is Hell!

Mike

Thanks for the rendezvous invite. I would be out of place, but I do like chatting with old miners and treasure seekers. I've been in some outlandishly rugged terrain in the southwest, but never in the Superstitions. I do have some interest and curiosity about those hills - might stay over and do a little hiking if I can make the date.

Nice photo. I can't find any useful info on the Martyr Cache other than your posts on a couple websites. Hard to make a judgement. I have to admit that I'm skeptical of Kenworthy in general, and that clouds my vision re this alleged cache. If you could provide more on the bars' provenance and authentication, I'd have better footing. What size were those ingots? Being "commemorative", maybe trade silver, I'd guess a couple-three ounces?

 

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[somehiker]

just one more map that indicats to the terrapin pass

View attachment 1476641View attachment 1476642


maybe this ruin with the defensive wall will help you to find proof of the jesuits in the mountains.

33°33'08.3"N 110°47'10.7"W
View attachment 1476656

The map is interesting and has quite a few symbols similar or same as rock art surrounding these hilltop structures.
Even the Archies don't know why they built them up there, and there's lots of them...some with quite a few structures.
The language also looks to be Nahuatl, although I've never taken a shot at translating it.
The Vatican has a codice/codices with the same script on it/them.
Nahua speaking scribes adopted and used the Latin alphabet early-on in the period of their "conversion" to Catholicism after 1521.
Not likely the Jesuits had anything to do with these ruins though. It was all abandoned long before they showed up.
But I think they did have a keen interest in this kinda stuff, and were looking for something "Cibola like" themselves.

Regards:SH.

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Guys, so far, it's only stories and pictures which can all be manufactured. No real authentication by experts.

Good luck,

Joe

　
This is ignoring rather strong evidence entirely. The Santa Rita silver mine, one of several Jesuit mines in Arizona, was rediscovered with hundreds of thousands of tons of rich silver ore already mined out. The piles of slag found at Tubac and Tumacacori, and built into the walls of two missions (at least) should show the trail. A sizable amount of precious metals was mined during the missionary period. Clearly some was smelted at the missions themselves. Where is all of that silver and gold?

　
By your standard, the Amber Room must never have existed, because all we have a stories of it. There are photos, but photos can be doctored. Likewise, any gold bars or silver, which may or may not have some markings indicating Jesuit ownership or linkage, are dismissed as fakes, hoaxes. However we have the empty hole left by the removal of rich ore at a number of mines, the listing of mines owned openly by the Jesuits in the study mentioned before, the mines which apparently belonged to the "Missions" as pertaining to them as listed by Nentvig's interesting study "Rudo Ensayo", and the products of those mines were mostly silver, and also gold and copper. Where did all of that precious metal go?
　
We have a clue in the complaint by Kino about his shipment of silver that got stolen en route, and in the shocking end of the Jesuit period in Spanish America, that they were strongly suspected of being engaged in high treason against the Spanish crown, even to the point of an intention to betray the Spanish colonies to the Dutch, and in a few places, to the English. We have corroborating evidence not only from the Spanish oblique statement "...reasons which we keep in our Royal mind..." but from Dutch and English contemporary sources as well, whom were pleasantly surprised at the friendly relations they were enjoying with the Jesuit missions and missionaries, in some cases apparently providing a source of resupply and rest for Dutch, French and English pirates and privateers operating in the Pacific. Now consider the Tayopa inventory document, which dates to almost the same time as the shocking accusations from Bishop Palafox, which accustions including that the Jesuits had and were operating "rich silver mines" in Mexico. I have not seen anyone successfully refute the Tayopa inventory document, found by former West Point officer Henry O. Flipper as a fake or hoax. Even the Molina document**, which includes a sort of inventory, may be a listing of the hoarded treasures, not to mention the estimated $40,000 worth of silver in the altar service seen by visitors to San Xavier del Bac on many occasions, but yet is missing today. Are you taking the stance that this impressive silver never existed?

　
** - the Molina document is widely dismissed as a fake or hoax, the obvious errors and inexplicablly early dates mentioned being pointed to as clear proof the document has to be false, yet in truth we can not make such conclusions at all since the Molina document as is known in the public eye, is a COPY of an original document. So we do not know what the original may or may not read, or if the copyist made deliberate changes to the text, dates, numbers etc as a protection.

We can also recall that Rudo Ensayo included several GOLD mines as belonging to the Jesuit missions, including one located near Guevavi that was "not being worked" at the moment the Ensayo was being written, and recall that the mission (visita) of Calabasas was specifically listed as having rather poor gold mines nearby which provided the main source of income for that mission. Where did all of the silver and gold GO? It was clearly not being shipped out of Arizona, and apparently not being shipped out of most of Mexico except at sporadic intervals and surreptitiously, as were the cases with the strange meeting of a caravan of mules loaded with silver from Tayopa encountered unexpectedly by a Spanish explorer whom was exploring the gulf of California and landed to acquire fresh water.

　
This has been litigated at exreme length in another thread, titled "Jesuit Treasures Are They Real?" and really this discussion belongs there, so my apologies to the thread owner for continuing off topic. I have only one more point to address, namely the slavery issue.

　
The Jesuits owned slaves. We might consider the Mission Indians to be slaves as well, for they were NOT free to come and go as they pleased, they had to obtain permission of the padres to do so, including for simple commerce or a hunting trip, and were forced to labor for three days per week. A three day work week may not sound so bad to us today, but consider if you were FORCED to labor for three days per week, under threat of the whip, the stocks, jail, or even starvation! And not just yourself, but your family as well! But the African slaves were also owned by the Jesuits in America, and in Europe as well. It has been pointed out that slavery was not only common but entirely legal, yet it is a stain on the honor of the Order that they were the largest slave holders in Maryland for some time, and when expelled from the French colony of New Orleans were found to have literally dozens and dozens of slaves, not to mention being directly involved in the ugly slave trade business itself. African slaves were even introduced into Sonora by Jesuits, as teh local Indians were not surviving well working in the mines and sugar cane industries where the Jesuits were using them.

Lest we conclude that the Franciscans were utterly innocent of any such ugly activities as mining, slavery and hoarding of treasures, we have a number of examples to their record as well, such as the interesting and tragic attempt by the intrepid father Garcia to found missions on the Colorado river, in which the mining of GOLD was one of the main enterprises. In this case, from a Franciscan source, we have it that the treasure that had been accumulated at the mission has long ago been located and extricated by Mexican treasure hunters. Likewise, we have records of at least two similar treasures (but including coins not just raw gold or silver) found at least two of the Franciscan missions in California. Side point here but to Tom in CA, I would point out that California was indeed a part of Spanish America, as were Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah and Nevada, so you have indeed been visiting the northern territory of Spanish America. The Franciscan missions of California, mostly founded by the famous father Serra, were also targeted by pirates for their treasures, Hippolyte de Bouchard raided the Presidio of Monterey in 1818 and others. Hippolyte de Bouchard and His Attacks on the California Missions

　
I would also point out that we are very much latecomers in the search for mission treasures, many others have gone ahead of us and with some success. In those early days of treasure hunting, documents were readily found at the old missions, and obtained for the taking. In fact in the American period, the padres were selling the old Jesuit documents for a dollar each. We should not expect to find the absolute, damning evidence that some apologists seem to demand before being 'convicted', even if that denial of true history is in a way worse than the open confession of ancient wrongs. We ought not whitewash the history of the padres in Spanish America, for they were indeed guilty of some wrongs, and at the same time we ought not damn them entirely for they were bringing 'civilization' to the natives, including education and foods (the so-called 'Columbian exchange' which included wheat, later a vital element of native survival) albeit with some dark chapters or aspects as well.

　
Every statement I have made in this thread can be backed up, in fact nearly all of it has already been posted in the other thread (Jesuit Treasures Are They Real?) so my apologies for the repetition, especially for my friends whom have had to wade through my verbal diarrhea on so many occasions, and for the VERY long post yet again. If I may suggest that we take this part of this discussion to that other thread, which IS focused on the question of Jesuit treasures, and by extension, to include the Franciscan activities in this field as well.
　
Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

　


OOPs almost forgot, here is the link to the relevant thread, where this discussion rightly belongs:
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/jesuit-treasures/153540-jesuit-treasures-they-real.html

 

[EarnieP]

Excellent information in these posts.
Regardless of which side of the Jesuit issue you fall, this has been a very informative string.
Thanks guys.

 

[EarnieP]

This string has reminded me of one of my favorite Donald Rumsfield quotes about the
'lack of evidence not being an evidence of lack'. ...(In this case no evidence of abundant Jesuit gold...)

Rumsfield
"There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know."

Or to put in Jesuit terms, an 'argumentum ad ignorantiam'.

[I realize you knowledgeable guys have shown there actually is NO lack of evidence concerning that Jesuit issue, and I appreciate the education. That's why I come here.]

You guys are good!
--------

To put the argument in another way;

I have a semi-powerful amateur telescope.
For years I have searched the surface of the moon looking for proof that man has really been there.
In all those years I have found nothing.
Therefore, I've concluded man was never there.

Just kidding, I gave that telescope to the grandkids years ago.

 

[Backwoodsbob]

I like that Earnie!

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

 

[deducer]

Four different accounts of the same discovery of Jesuit treasure. If this is completely made up, I marvel at the sophisticated, coordinated act of fraud and deception involving multiple countries!

 

[EarnieP]

Interesting picture of 18th century Jesuit found on Wikipedia ('Jesuit Reduction') while trying to learn more about the Jesuits.
Remind you of anything on the Peralta Stones?

 

[sdcfia]

Four different accounts of the same discovery of Jesuit treasure. If this is completely made up, I marvel at the sophisticated, coordinated act of fraud and deception involving multiple countries!

Thanks for those articles, deducer. $70,000,000 in 1890s gold = about 3,500,000 ounces. Well, the rivers in the jungles certainly had the potential to produce that much gold. They still do in fact. Those Portuguese Jesuits must have screwed up by leaving those documents lying around in Lisbon. We all acknowledge the church's avarice and sociopathic methods in the New World - particularly the Jesuits, although the Franciscans sullied themselves quite badly early on too before adopting a lower profile.

When we return the conversation to Arizona, we have a hard time crediting the Jesuits with the glory of the treasure cache legends that seemed to grow around them - possibly spurred by association with their Order's activities in South America, the Philippines, et al. As I've always suggested, the brothers quite likely participated in some modest silver mining and maybe abandoned some trade silver and church decorations in southern Arizona. As Oro has so frequently stated, it wouldn't be a bad day's work to dig up a couple hundred ounces of silver or some candlesticks.

 

[somehiker]

View attachment 1476960

Interesting picture of 18th century Jesuit found on Wikipedia ('Jesuit Reduction') while trying to learn more about the Jesuits.
Remind you of anything on the Peralta Stones?

About 5 years ago our friend Hal had posted the same depiction in a Stone Maps thread.
Difference was, that his version had a point on top, instead of the flattop. I knew I had seen it before, and it didn't take long to find and post the original. His reply...." an artist friend had done that for him" haha.
I've also previously posted a untouched black and white photo, which I believe I copied from the Sharlott Hall collection and from late 1800's-early 1900's, that had a group of Mexican peons, one of which was wearing a tall and pointed sombrero like that on the H/P Stone. Then there is also several of DeGrazia's paintings of Navajo holy/medicine men wearing pointed sombreros.

And just to add to the collection, here's a crop from a sample of more recent art done by kids who are being educated in their own Aztec/Mexica heritage classes.



And the map originally shared by " Not Peralta "....



So, no shortage of pointy hats to choose from....

 

[EarnieP]

Yep, I've run across them before (tall pointy sombrero type headgear) while trying to keep up with the Peralta Stone strings.
Just thought this one 'apropos' due to the pic's Jesuit label and the recent discussion here

Combined with the alluded* possibility of the Stone Maps leading to a Jesuit treasure trove.
Maybe even an upcoming TV series concerning such?
Didn't Ryan use Jesuit Sherpas during his recent outing?


[*'alluded' or 'eluded', depending on where you stand on that particular issue.]

 

[somehiker]

Yep, I've run across them before (tall pointy sombrero type headgear) while trying to keep up with the Peralta Stone strings.
Just thought this one 'apropos' due to the pic's Jesuit label and the recent discussion here

Combined with the alluded* possibility of the Stone Maps leading to a Jesuit treasure trove.
Maybe even an upcoming TV series concerning such?
Didn't Ryan use Jesuit Sherpas during his recent outing?


[*'alluded' or 'eluded', depending on where you stand on that particular issue.]

Couple of problems I have with a "Jesuit" identity for the "Priest" on the stone.

Long hair.....does this make him a Jesuit gone native ? Or a native gone Jesuit ?....or maybe a native who has merely donned a priest's robe ?
If so, then what happened to the Padre ? More than a few were killed in the revolts.
The cross on the sleeve.....I've never been able to find a drawing,painting, or photo showing anything of the sort on a cassock worn by a Jesuit priest.

TV series....don't think that's gonna happen.

 

[EarnieP]

Good points SH,

The long hair? That is a good question. I've just found a few articles for long hair Priests, will have to look further into that.
The cross? Maybe it's a pectoral cross being depicted swinging back on a neck chain?

I've often thought the 'Priest' on the Peralta Stone might actually represent a certain rock formation in the Superstition.
One that Ryan clearly included in one of his earlier videos.
But like images in clouds, I suppose you can see certain shaped rock formations that you may be looking for (hearts, Priests) throughout the area.

 

[somehiker]

Ernie:
Folks today ain't the first to see things in the clouds. Way back when, other humans did too.
Sometimes they got real spooked by it, and made what they saw on or in the shape of something a part of their legends and even religion. People turned to stone or pillars of salt for example. Boiling clouds and thunder bolts were Gods at war or even worse, pissed off. If they made a pictograph or drawing of what these "apparitions" looked like to them, those images looked vaguely human or animal, or even hybrid. And as I've said before, using these naturally formed and eternal landmarks as waypoints on a map was and is common. Works well, so long as them who have your map understand that these "faces in the clouds" are what they need to follow.....and can also see them.
My own "Priest" is also a rock formation. In fact, within my own area of Stone Map interest, there are two rock formations showing very similar poses and attributes to the one on the H/P stone. The larger one has the cross on the sleeve and the vertical mark at the back of the mouth, and the smaller one has the pointed hat. They can both be viewed, not far apart, at the same time. Which has me suspecting the one on the stone was a combination of both.

 

[Honest Samuel]

I am total confuse about this story.

 

[somehiker]

I am total confuse about this story.

I'm not surprised that you are.
There's no single issue within this topic, and the discussion involves several different stories with similar themes.
So it would be confusing to those who aren't familiar with most or all of it.

 

[EarnieP]

Sorry if I added to that confusion Honest Sam.
My written comments are often backwards, upside down, and out of place, but my speech can be even worse.

 

[deducer]

As far as the "pointy hat" on the larger priest, what ended up being the issue for me was not the sombrero style, but the band on the hat itself. I couldn't find any example of any type of pointed hat with a band on it, neither in Navajo, Mexican, Spanish, or Jesuit iconography, and that was in itself the clue (and breakthrough) that led me to see it as something else than being a hat. In short, it represents something that is both seen above the larger priest, and something which also points to it, and is disguised as a "pointy hat" on the priest carved on the H/P stone. That a single thing could incorporate and mean so many things, testifies to the sheer ingenuity contained within those Stone Maps.

 

[sdcfia]

Ernie:
Folks today ain't the first to see things in the clouds. Way back when, other humans did too.
Sometimes they got real spooked by it, and made what they saw on or in the shape of something a part of their legends and even religion. People turned to stone or pillars of salt for example. Boiling clouds and thunder bolts were Gods at war or even worse, pissed off. If they made a pictograph or drawing of what these "apparitions" looked like to them, those images looked vaguely human or animal, or even hybrid. And as I've said before, using these naturally formed and eternal landmarks as waypoints on a map was and is common. Works well, so long as them who have your map understand that these "faces in the clouds" are what they need to follow.....and can also see them.
My own "Priest" is also a rock formation. In fact, within my own area of Stone Map interest, there are two rock formations showing very similar poses and attributes to the one on the H/P stone. The larger one has the cross on the sleeve and the vertical mark at the back of the mouth, and the smaller one has the pointed hat. They can both be viewed, not far apart, at the same time. Which has me suspecting the one on the stone was a combination of both.

It's called pareidolia. Man seems to be hard-wired to substitute familiar shapes and sounds for things he sees or hears in his environment. Faces seem to be very prevalent - the eggheads say it hearkens back to a baby recognizing his mother's face as soon as he's born, or some such. Problem is, not everybody is tuned the same way. Some folks see something every time they turn around, and others never seem to get the picture. Treasure hunters like to imagine that the "Spanish" or the "ancients" carved all these associations. They didn't (unless you can find chisel marks and rock chips).

You're right - "looks like" landmarks are a terrific thing to put on maps, especially those really good examples that nearly everyone can recognize. In the Hispanic Southwest, it was very common to link those human-appearing rocks to a religious theme of some sort, considering those folks' culture. Below is a good example _ "the kneeling nun" - arguably the oldest and most recognizable landmark in southwest New Mexico. It's visible from 20 miles from the east or west and has appeared on countless maps over the years.



Legend of the Kneeling Nun
(Walter Foote Sellers)

This the tale as they tell it: how in Days of old,
Came the explorer and the Soldier, seeking the glitter of gold;
Robbing and burning and killing, all in the name of the King;
Eyes a-gleam for the honors, men to the conqueror bring.
After them came the Fathers, close on the steps they trod,
Holding a lot the sign of the faith, chanting the glory of God,
Gentle were they, and tender, healing the wounds of pain,
Left by the sword and firebrand of the pitiless hand of Spain.

This the tale as they tell it; how by the Aztec trail
They builded an Indian Mission, The Knights of the Holy Grail,
Here in the desert they labored, teaching the truth and the Light.
Showing the ways of another race to the savage sons of Knight.
Fairest of all the workers was the Sister Teresa, the Nun,
Teaching the Indian children, quickly their hearts she won,
Soon through the desert country, where’er spread the Mission’s fame,
Even the gurgling infants were trying to lisp her name.

This is the Tale as they Tell it; how Diago the Soldier came,
Staggering into the courtyard, weary and sore and lame,
Leagues had he crawled through the desert, seeking a kindly hand:
The last of all his comrades, dead in the new-found land,
Then through the long days of sickness, quietly there by his bed,
Watched the Sister Teresa, cooling his fevered head,
And while he raved of his tortures, there through the length of the night,
Faithful, kindly and patient, she watched for the coming of light.

This the tale as they tell it; how Diago’s eyes grew clear,
And gleamed anew with a shining light, when the Sister nurse was near,
Hours would they talk together; he with his stories of strife,
Strange to her quiet seclusion these tales of Struggles of Life.
So did their hearts grow stronger, till ever she bore in her mind,
The name of Diago the Soldier, and love to her vows were blind;
Till at last in his arms they found her, eyes like stars above,
Shining into the depths of her lover’s, breathing the Life of Love.

This is the tale as they tell it; how on that fatal day,
Stripped of her garb of her Order, they turned the Sister away;
Forth to the desert she wandered and builded an altar of stone,
There she knelt in her suffering, at last, with her God alone.
Then came the storm and the darkness, madly the thunder crashed,
Loud rolled the earth in its anger, cruel the lightning crashed,
And oft through the night to the Mission was born her piteous cry;
“Oh Madre de Dios; Thy mercy on such as I!”

This the tale as they tell it; how with the coming of light
There where had been an altar, a mountain had grown in the night,
While before it was kneeling, so saw the Mission flock,
The Sister Teresa of yesterday turned to eternal rock.
So in the desert country, through all the length of days,
Kneeling before her altar, for the erring souls she prays,
And oft when the storm is raging, they hear her piteous cry;
“Oh Madre de Dios! Thy mercy on such as I!”

 

[somehiker]

As far as the "pointy hat" on the larger priest, what ended up being the issue for me was not the sombrero style, but the band on the hat itself. I couldn't find any example of any type of pointed hat with a band on it, neither in Navajo, Mexican, Spanish, or Jesuit iconography, and that was in itself the clue (and breakthrough) that led me to see it as something else than being a hat. In short, it represents something that is both seen above the larger priest, and something which also points to it, and is disguised as a "pointy hat" on the priest carved on the H/P stone. That a single thing could incorporate and mean so many things, testifies to the sheer ingenuity contained within those Stone Maps.

There's no doubt the artist's choice of headgear makes the priest figure such an important part of the mystery.
And it's style certainly made it easy for some to identify the depiction as a "witch", despite the Latin cross on the sleeve, and the Crucifixion cross in his hands....very un-witch-like IMO.
So he's not a witch, and the Christian iconography and language used on the stone should make it quite clear the carver did not intend the figure to be seen as such. While I can't say the band on the hat, giving it a layered triangular appearance, or even the hole in the bottom layer has led me to any particular place on the ground, it does suit both the topography and overall circumstances of what I have zeroed in on.