casing and incremented copper

[B|lker]

The first item the casing, was found by bob the gentleman i hunt with.
I have no clue on this one since the primer has been set in place by 3 points and is a little under 1/2 inch wide.


The second I found while out with MM at a spot where many Civil War items were found.
It appears to be copper with a grove on one side and equal increments on the other. May have been sheared and stamped from a 1/16inch sheet of copper.

Thanks for your ideas and just looking.
I was thinking the small copper piece might have been from a weapons aiming sight.

 

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[dkw]

It appears to be a rimless cartridge. Any readable headstamp?

 

[B|lker]

Thanks DKW but,
Nothing yet after 3 brasso light cleanings even when view under a lit magnifier

 

[dkw]

The design of the case head reminds me a little of the 8mm Lebel cartridge but it is rimmed and has a lot more body taper than yours appears to.

Based on the head diameter and the relative straightness of the body, I'll guess it to be one of the numerous cartridges based on the .473 head size(30-06,.308,8x57,etc).

The design of the case head still has me scratching my head.

 

[Montana Jim]

It appears to be a rimless cartridge. Any readable headstamp?

I clearly see an "8" or "R" and some other charactors on the headstamp...

Can we get a macro shot of it?

 

[dkw]

I clearly see an "8" or "R" and some other charactors on the headstamp...

If you're talking about the 1 to 2 o'clock position in the picture, I think I see it too. At first I though it might be the R-P from Remington.

 

[B|lker]

OK. i see the 8 but thats about all. in this pic i`ts at about 7-clock
Taken with a 4x Macro lens i can`t see much.
Thanks dkw and Montana Jim.

 

[Monty]

Looks like a rebated rim meaning the rim is smaller than the cartridge itself. The only rebated rim I can think of is a .284 Winchester? Monty

 

[dkw]

Looks like a rebated rim meaning the rim is smaller than the cartridge itself. The only rebated rim I can think of is a .284 Winchester? Monty

There are actually several catrridges available now with rebated rims. However, most of them are of newer origin than this case appears to be. The .284 would be the most likely choice if it is a rebated rim. I don't think it is.

Hey B|lker, How about a caliper measurement of the case head and the case itself right above the extractor groove?

 

[Monty]

I think some of the new short magnum cartridges may have rebated rims but those that do have the same rim measurement as the 284 Winchester. I agree this case looks a lot older. The 3 point crimp on the primer is indicative of a military cartridge. I don't know of a cartridge that has a crimped primer made for civilian use. It may not have a rebated rim and just looks like it does in the first set of photos. Whatever, it appears to be a large capacity case but without some measurements it will be extremely difficult to identify. Measure the rim and the base of the case just above the extraction groove. Even with measurements we may only be able to identify it as a member of a family of cartridges with the same measurements without knowing the length of the case.That other object doesn't look like part of a sight or aiming device to me. Monty

 

[B|lker]

I love getting everyone's AMMO knowledge since I`m an X- Air Force Munitions maintenance Specialist.
THANKS Monty, dkw And Jim.
I measured this thing at several different areas of its circumference, I`m guessing its a little lopsided and i see no difference between the base and case.

 

[dkw]

Based on the head diameter and the relative straightness of the body, I'll guess it to be one of the numerous cartridges based on the .473 head size(30-06,.308,8x57,etc).

After seeing the measurements, I'll stand by my guess.

 

[B|lker]

Thanks dkw i think you hit it on the head. I was guessing around the .465 range.
Still wish i knew how old it is.

Again, thanks Monty and M.Jim

Any body got any ideas on the small piece of copper before i toss it in the recycle bucket.

 

[cpwbpwthunt]

The first item the casing, was found by bob the gentleman i hunt with.
I have no clue on this one since the primer has been set in place by 3 points and is a little under 1/2 inch wide.


The second I found while out with MM at a spot where many Civil War items were found.
It appears to be copper with a grove on one side and equal increments on the other. May have been sheared and stamped from a 1/16inch sheet of copper.

Thanks for your ideas and just looking.
I was thinking the small copper piece might have been from a weapons aiming sight.

the aiming sight mite be a possible thought but during the civil war there didn't use aiming sights
it was all 30 or 20 yards a way from the other guy but any things possible i just learned that snipers existed during that time

 

[Monty]

Just out of curiosity what was the measurement of the case web? I reload, shoot and collect turn of the century bolt action military rifles. I am very familiar with the 8mm Mauser, the 7.5 Swiss, 6.5 Swede,the 7.62 Russian and the shorter 7.62 Russian that shoots in the Kalashnikov (senior moment the name excapes me), 7.62X47? So, the 8mm Mauser (8X57) looks like it comes closer to being the one. The 7.62X54 Russian is rimmed so it is out....however the Swiss is a pretty fat case at the web. Dang, now I'll fret about it until I figure it out. Wish we could make out all the stamping on the case head.
I've never seen a rifle with a copper sight, except maybe the old Yellow Boy repeater, but I don't think it did.
M nty

 

[l.cutler]

Sights were most certainly used during the Civil War. Rifles, most rifled muskets and all rifle muskets were equipped with sights, smoothbores were sightless. I am with Monty, I don't think any rear sights were made of copper or brass though, so I doubt yours is a piece of a sight.

 

[B|lker]

Monty here is a better pic of the base area.
Hope you can make something out of it.

If i understand you correctly the web measurement would refer to the area that would be gripped by a leather holster where the rounds are stored?

Thanks for everyone's 2 cents on the incremented copper.

 

[dkw]

Just out of curiosity what was the measurement of the case web?

Monty, The way I interpret his measurement of the case web, it measures just under .475.

I reload, shoot and collect turn of the century bolt action military rifles.M nty

You wouldn't happen to be a fellow 03 FFL holder, would you?

 

[dkw]

Not there, but getting closer.

http://www.afte.org/forum/smf1/index.php?topic=1367.60

Post #68 shows Yugoslavian 8x57(8mm Mauser) ammo with a 3 indention primer crimp. Post #69 shows a 30-06 case head with a similar groove. Now if we could just mate the two, we'd be in business.

I'm kind of like Monty. This one will drive me nuts until solved.

 

[dkw]

Look at B in the picture below. The crimps aren't as distinct, but they're there. This was found at http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscelln.htm

A - Stab crimp, B - Circular stake crimp, circa WWI, C - Circular stake crimp, circa WWII,
D - US Military crimp