Captain Thomas Beale Sr.

[franklin]

I have three different times of death for Captain Thomas Beale Sr.

 

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[Rebel - KGC]

I have three different times of death for Captain Thomas Beale Sr.

First has him dying September, 1818 signed with witnesses on a death certificate one of the witnesses his son Samuel William Beale. Samuel says in 1855 that his father died September, 1818. Samuel says he is 35 years old which would make his father dying two years before he was born. This is impossible so we can not except this as Captain Thomas Beale's date of death.

Second, I have the death of Captain Thomas Beale Sr. as being on or a little before September 8, 1820 as this was in the Louisiana Gazette September 11, 1820 page 2, column 2 and it reports that Captain Thomas Beale Sr.'s burial took place in the Protestant Cemetery on September 8, 1820.

Third, I have a genealogical list of Captain Thomas Beale Sr.'s family, wife and her parents and most of their kin in New Orleans, Jefferson Parish, Louisiana. This record has Captain Thomas Beale Sr. as husband of Celeste Boucher de Grand Pre. Captain Thomas Beale, Sr. died 1826? NO (New Orleans)
With the question mark this one too is not believed although it could be correct. The "6" in 1826 could have been misread by the author and he thought it was a "6" instead of a "0"

Myself I have learned to take documented evidence as proof of burials. So I would have to say that I believe the Louisiana Gazette September 11, 1820 page 2, column 2 as factual and the date that Captain Thomas Beale Sr. was buried in the Protestant Cemetery in Jefferson Parish, New Orleans, Louisiana.

Agree with you on 1820 date... have same info.

 

[Cryptography]

I have three different times of death for Captain Thomas Beale Sr.

First has him dying September, 1818 signed with witnesses on a death certificate one of the witnesses his son Samuel William Beale. Samuel says in 1855 that his father died September, 1818. Samuel says he is 35 years old which would make his father dying two years before he was born. This is impossible so we can not except this as Captain Thomas Beale's date of death.

Second, I have the death of Captain Thomas Beale Sr. as being on or a little before September 8, 1820 as this was in the Louisiana Gazette September 11, 1820 page 2, column 2 and it reports that Captain Thomas Beale Sr.'s burial took place in the Protestant Cemetery on September 8, 1820.

Third, I have a genealogical list of Captain Thomas Beale Sr.'s family, wife and her parents and most of their kin in New Orleans, Jefferson Parish, Louisiana. This record has Captain Thomas Beale Sr. as husband of Celeste Boucher de Grand Pre. Captain Thomas Beale, Sr. died 1826? NO (New Orleans)
With the question mark this one too is not believed although it could be correct. The "6" in 1826 could have been misread by the author and he thought it was a "6" instead of a "0"

Myself I have learned to take documented evidence as proof of burials. So I would have to say that I believe the Louisiana Gazette September 11, 1820 page 2, column 2 as factual and the date that Captain Thomas Beale Sr. was buried in the Protestant Cemetery in Jefferson Parish, New Orleans, Louisiana.

One problem that i see with 1820. It said Thos Beale not Captain Thomas Beale.
Two problems that i see in 1818. James William Beale that made the certificate of death in 1855 was the Catpains son and he was born in 1820 and said his Father died before he was born by 2 years.
Thanks Jean for the copies.

Jean is going to get some more documentation soon he said. Lets see what he comes up with.

 

[Cryptography]

Agree with you on 1820 date... have same info.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

One problem that i see with 1820. It said Thos Beale not Captain Thomas Beale.
Two problems that i see in 1818. James William Beale that made the certificate of death in 1855 was the Catpains son and he was born in 1820 and said his Father died before he was born by 2 years.
Thanks Jean for the copies.

Jean is going to get some more documentation soon he said. Lets see what he comes up with.

By "2 years"...? LOL!

 

[TN_Guest1523]

One problem that i see with 1820. It said Thos Beale not Captain Thomas Beale.
Two problems that i see in 1818. James William Beale that made the certificate of death in 1855 was the Catpains son and he was born in 1820 and said his Father died before he was born by 2 years.
Thanks Jean for the copies.

Jean is going to get some more documentation soon he said. Lets see what he comes up with.

Thos Beale R wills

 

[ECS]

View attachment 1208760
Thos Beale R wills

...and still, Laf, this does not establish if this Thomas Beale , or the other Thomas Beales of this period, is the Thomas Beale of the Beale Papers, or if the name Thomas Beale was only used as a literary character in a dime novel.
Then there is that lack of evidence that anything written in the Beale Papers ever happened.

 

[bigscoop]

If I might be allowed to interject my personal notion on all of this I expect you will find that the Thomas J. Beale you seek was in the employ of one Steven Girard, and/or the US government, as a "runner".

What was a runner, exactly? During the period this would be someone entrusted with the delivery and safe passage of important messages and/or shipments. Obviously, and depending on the nature of one's business, this would require the hiring of skilled individuals who were capable of carrying out the various duties assigned to them. But this is just my personal notion.

 

[bigscoop]

This is where things get interesting. If you think this is your Thomas J. Beale of the pamphlet then simply cross reference the dates of those signatures with the long periods that he would have allegedly been out west. Can't be in two places at once. If this is your Beale then you shouldn't find any of his signatures on official business affairs in New Orleans when he was suppose to be out west. And if you can place him in New Orleans during those periods then he can't be your man.

 

[ECS]

If I might be allowed to interject my personal notion on all of this I expect you will find that the Thomas J. Beale you seek was in the employ of one Steven Girard, and/or the US government, as a "runner"...

Steven Girard had several ships, and conducted business in Africa, India, China, and South America.
The China involved trading Appalachian ginseng for Chinese opium, while he ran guns to Simon Bolivar in South America. Girard's main Captains were Ezra Bowen and Myles McLeven.
Are you suggesting that Thomas Beale was one of his captains?
Girard, a friend of Joseph Bonaparte, loaned the Lallemand brothers $4000 for guns and munitions for their Champ 'd Isle Bonapartist adventure. Henri Lallemand married Girard's niece, Henriette.
Also ,Girard's Philadelphia home was located near to that of founding father, Robert Morris.

 

[bigscoop]

Steven Girard had several ships, and conducted business in Africa, India, China, and South America.
The China involved trading Appalachian ginseng for Chinese opium, while he ran guns to Simon Bolivar in South America. Girard's main Captains were Ezra Bowen and Myles McLeven.
Are you suggesting that Thomas Beale was one of his captains?
Girard, a friend of Joseph Bonaparte, loaned the Lallemand brothers $4000 for guns and munitions for their Champ 'd Isle Bonapartist adventure. Henri Lallemand married Girard's niece, Henriette.
Also ,Girard's Philadelphia home was located near to that of founding father, Robert Morris.

No. Not suggesting he was one of Girard's ship captains.

 

[ECS]

Returning to Lafitte's memoires, there is the mention of the surnames, Ward and Sherman, and "those of Bolivar", which could be a reference to a Texas peninsula, or to Simon Bolivar-with the orders "to keep our promise and distribute the gold to the indicated places".
It is also known that Lafitte betrayed the Lallemands, which would not have gone well with Girard.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Returning to Lafitte's memoires, there is the mention of the surnames, Ward and Sherman, and "those of Bolivar", which could be a reference to a Texas peninsula, or to Simon Bolivar-with the orders "to keep our promise and distribute the gold to the indicated places".
It is also known that Lafitte betrayed the Lallemands, which would not have gone well with Girard.

Lafitte's Memoirs (of the 1940's); were found to be FAKES!

 

[TN_Guest1523]

Well Jean Laf the ball is in your court. What was the date on the documents signed while Thomas Beale was registrar of wills? Myself I believe the dates range from 1815 to 1817. After that TJB could have carried the treasures to Virginia to bury. Remember I believe the treasure was from the Royal Depository in Baton Rouge, LA where TJB's father in law was Governor of West Florida until his death in 1810 or 1812 and then TJB married his daughter in 1815 So I believe 1815 to 1817 should be correct. The Governor's brother was over the Royal Depository when General Jackson took possession of West Florida.

I have the Father-in Laws death in Cuba 1809 in a Spanish prison for being a Spy of the French.

Thos Beale Register of Wills from 1811-1820 that I can find. He may have known someone to get this job. At the time Louisiana was not a State so he was over all Orleans Territory at that time. He was a no show for a lot of the time with others working under him.

 

[TN_Guest1523]

Mr Morriss said!


So if we look the first time Morriss had seen Beale it was 1820 Jan

 

[bigscoop]

Mr Morriss said!
View attachment 1209559

So if we look the first time Morriss had seen Beale it was 1820 Jan

Doesn't matter when Morriss first saw him. If we believe the tale then Beale was out west for the greater part of 1818 through 1820. If your register of wills served in New Orleans during these same periods then he can't be your man.

Issues such as this, and others, have always presented various obstacles when trying to nail down the correct Thomas J. Beale.

 

[bigscoop]

Lafitte's Memoirs (of the 1940's); were found to be FAKES!

Not entirely true. The ink and paper were from the correct period and many of the details in the manuscript have since been discovered to be accurate. The handwriting has always been in question and John A's history has also remained in question. I recently spoke to Gene Marshall and while he still leans toward the manuscript as being a forgery he also noted that there are some strange predictions in the manuscript that turned out to be accurate. So the authenticity of the manuscript is still being debated today. Also noted was this, "forgery or not, the accuracy of the information within appears to be reliable."

 

[bigscoop]

Returning to Lafitte's memoires, there is the mention of the surnames, Ward and Sherman, and "those of Bolivar", which could be a reference to a Texas peninsula, or to Simon Bolivar-with the orders "to keep our promise and distribute the gold to the indicated places".
It is also known that Lafitte betrayed the Lallemands, which would not have gone well with Girard.

This is also an inaccurate assumption. Were you aware that after exhausting that $4000 Lallemand approached Girard again for more money in which Girard refused his request? There were several people who lost their faith in Lallemand and his ability to continue his duties, this even including Raguad and others. Don't confuse assumed loyalties with actual business as they represent two entirely different affairs.

But all of this would be subject for a different thread.

 

[TN_Guest1523]

Doesn't matter when Morriss first saw him. If we believe the tale then Beale was out west for the greater part of 1818 through 1820. If your register of wills served in New Orleans during these same periods then he can't be your man.

Issues such as this, and others, have always presented various obstacles when trying to nail down the correct Thomas J. Beale.

Still looking for Captain Thomas Beale's name popping up on a document for a dead or other such item. The deed in VA that ( PV ) had seems to have the name on it that is a match for the Register of wills in Orleans 1811-1820.

Still looking at 3 Thomas Beale's at this time in New Orleans
1. Captain Thomas Beale
2. Thos Beale Register of wills
3. Thomas Beale Jr

 

[Cryptography]

Doesn't matter when Morriss first saw him. If we believe the tale then Beale was out west for the greater part of 1818 through 1820. If your register of wills served in New Orleans during these same periods then he can't be your man.

Issues such as this, and others, have always presented various obstacles when trying to nail down the correct Thomas J. Beale.

If we say this is the only eyewitness for beale in that area at that time and go from there. i think we may have firm ground to start with. The letters that Beale sent to Morriss could say what Beale wanted to without them being truth, yet in some way a clue to morriss that only call him Thomas Beale not TJB.

1. 1820 is the only time someone knows of him to be there in VA.
2. C2 can be just front story for what is truly going on in the rest of the cipher.
3. if you think the story in the Beale Papers to be 100 % truth think again.
4. There is more going on here than that of a few tons of gold and silver.