Caltrops / Cripplers

[JARMAN]

Found at an Antique Shop. Owner thought they were kids jacks. But i had seen the first photo on a relic site for $55 each dug.#2 photo is mine. Do you think that these are the real thing or wishful thinking. Even if there jacks its a dollar well spent. Thanks for your comments.

 

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[digger_girl]

Probably I should stay out of this, but I just gotta add my 2 cents worth. LOL It seems something as small as JARMAN's items could indeed do damage to a horse's hoof. Stones and pebbles can lame a horse if stepped on in the quick area of the hoof. The horeshoe only protects the outside of the bottom of the hoof, not the tender center portion. I think I wouldn't want to step on those things, and neither would a horse. Course, I've been called a horse's arse, so maybe that's why.

TT is right. I used to own a Quarter Horse, named Homer's Brother. He was such a sweety! And ran like the wind...... OK back to subject. Something as small as a pea can hurt a horse, if it gets into the tender part of his hoof.
I'm not so quick to discount these as Calthrops/Cripplers. The research I've done on line shows a vast array of different sizes and shapes. We may have to chalk this one up to "Undecided" unless someone can show a picture (an a link, if need be :P) to prove or disprove that these are, or are not Calthrops.

Of course, this is just my opinion. But then again, none of us are experts, are we?

 

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[Charlie P. (NY)]

So, wouldn't it have been cheaper and easier to spread pea gravel?

The South didn't have iron or foundries for cannon let alone formed metal pebbles and the North used government issue equipment.

In 1980 to 1982 I worked for an iron foundry and we had machines that deburred the castings and knocked the sand from the casting process out of the formed parts (valve bodies). They were produced by the Wheelabrator Company. Looked like big cement mixers. The peening grit were little metal losenges that look an AWFUL lot like the items in the first post of this thread. After the machine ran a while they were dumped, the sand went through a screen and magnets picked out the metal filings and grit & the sand was re-used, the valve bodies were stacked and the little peening "balls" were reused over & over until they became so rounded they were melted as scrap iron themselves for making valves. I have found similar images but no exact matches yet.

When someone's charging at you with a drawn sword you don't want something that might make his horse uncomfortable. You want it severely disabled. How effective would those little 5/8" bearings be in dirt? How many paved roads were there in 1860?

I remain skeptical.

 

[Montana Jim]

I also own horses, and I agree with the FACT that a pea sized anything can cripples a horse. But... like Charlie says, why throw pea gravel when you want to lame a horse in battle? The terrain alone is worse than those iron pieces shown to a well kept and shod calvery horse.

I really think that while shaped so - they are NOT caltrops...

Nobody would throw thumbtacks in front of a truck to blow it's tire... anyone would use spikes.

Shape alone does not a caltrop make. IMO

 

[digger_girl]

I also own horses, and I agree with the FACT that a pea sized anything can cripples a horse. But... like Charlie says, why throw pea gravel when you want to lame a horse in battle? The terrain alone is worse than those iron pieces shown to a well kept and shod calvery horse.

I really think that while shaped so - they are NOT caltrops...

Nobody would throw thumbtacks in front of a truck to blow it's tire... anyone would use spikes.

Shape alone does not a caltrop make. IMO

So, wouldn't it have been cheaper and easier to spread pea gravel?

The South didn't have iron or foundries for cannon let alone formed metal pebbles and the North used government issue equipment.

In 1980 to 1982 I worked for an iron foundry and we had machines that deburred the castings and knocked the sand from the casting process out of the formed parts (valve bodies). They were produced by the Wheelabrator Company. Looked like big cement mixers. The peening grit were little metal losenges that look an AWFUL lot like the items in the first post of this thread. After the machine ran a while they were dumped, the sand went through a screen and magnets picked out the metal filings and grit & the sand was re-used, the valve bodies were stacked and the little peening "balls" were reused over & over until they became so rounded they were melted as scrap iron themselves for making valves. I have found similar images but no exact matches yet.

When someone's charging at you with a drawn sword you don't want something that might make his horse uncomfortable. You want it severely disabled. How effective would those little 5/8" bearings be in dirt? How many paved roads were there in 1860?

I remain skeptical.

While I agree with both of you, as you make valid points, you seem very quick to dimiss them as Calthrops.

Here is a 2-7/8" high Civil War calthrop.

http://www.forthehunt.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=93151171#PIC

Here is a 1-1/2" high Civil War calthrop.

http://www.trocadero.com/faganarms/items/707594/item707594store.html#item

Here is a small Civil War calthrop

I'm seeing much more "pointedness" than the little finger width octahedrons shown on someone's hand in the early images.

Even in the pictures Charlie P. himself posted, you see a wide variety. If only we could go back in time to see for ourselves.
And yes, it would make more sense to throw a big "crows foot" out in front of a horse, to cripple it instantly. I agree. But then why even make the smaller ones that are shown in Charlie P.'s post?

And while JARMAN's may not have as much "pointedness" to them as some others shown, how can we rule out that at one time they may have been more pointed than they appear now?

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

. . . you seem very quick to dimiss them as Calthrops.

As I think a war horse would.

It is impossible to prove a negative. If someone comes along and finds an unopened box of Acme 1860 Calthrops of that design I'm all over them as authentic. I can't prove what he has was not used, as I can't prove stone clubs were not. We can only hope to find period references or large amounts of similar items in the historical (soil) record.

Do JARMAN's have any points that point up? They are flat on top and slightly smaller than Lincoln cents.

How thick is a horseshoe? 3/8" to 1/2" maybe. Wouldn't a point that extends at least that height above the ground be necessary for effectiveness? And if the horseshoe is smushing into the dirt, so is that little iron jack.

 

[JARMAN]

Well HE Double toothpick, It looks like I still have some whats its. And because of what this post has, in part become, I must say I do agree that at any time, a forum member has factual information of a site listing, items, products, exct, that are fake or unauthenticated that it should be shared to all. We are all aware that the web is full of not only dishonest folks, but there are those that offer items in the beleive that they are genuine. For this reason and the true lack of expertise on my part, I do not buy from the web when it comes to the hobby. It is, a buyer beware system.

I highley respect the advice, knowlage and opinions of the Masters of the forum,and have learned much because of them and others who post. Most of all I beleive in factual evedance, if it can be found to any question or concern, and I base my call on the information received. That once again is why we all post in this feild. I must say that I came abored a few years ago, and realy don't remember what I may or may not have read at the time, on the protocol of the forum. But then I can't remember what I read yesterday.I used a picture to make reference and seen no reason to post the site. If this becomes a requirement or I feel site is needed for conformation I will post. As always thanks and HH.

 

[Red_desert]

Just my observation on the 2 photos at the top. I had jacks to play with when a small child. I noticed in the second photo a smooth worn spot, angle wear on the edges of the points. You spin a jack, they spin upright until falling over as slowing down. That could cause an angled smooth spot like in the photo. Has anyone tried searching jacks?

I started searching myself, but stopped with this info from Wilkipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacks

If the game of jacks started hundreds of years ago, using stones, bone...how about the first metal jack? Making the transition from stone to metal...the first jacks could have been in a shape similar to a crystal. It is a thought anyway. A prototype of the modern jack ought to be worth something...if that is what it is.

Of course modern jacks look like they could make good horse cripplers if a little larger in size.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I used a picture to make reference and seen no reason to post the site. If this becomes a requirement or I feel site is needed for conformation I will post. As always thanks and HH.

Dont worry, Jarman, Diggergirl posted it for us, only to help with the identification of your "what is it".

Maybe they are Gonji Stones.

 

[digger_girl]

Hey JARMAN~ You may want to check out this thread for more info:
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,132606.0.html

Happy Hunting
DG

 

[JARMAN]

Digger - Girl, Thanks for the link, It lets me know that there is hope yet on my items. You keep up the search technique, Your going to be up there with some of the greats on the forum. I,m going to see if i can locate the article spoken about in the Man of Arms. Thanks again. Going to be out of town all next week ,but when I get back maybe we can get back out to the sites up your way and try our luck on some digs. Thanks again..HH

 

[digger_girl]

Digger - Girl, Thanks for the link, It lets me know that there is hope yet on my items. You keep up the search technique, Your going to be up there with some of the greats on the forum. I,m going to see if i can locate the article spoken about in the Man of Arms. Thanks again. Going to be out of town all next week ,but when I get back maybe we can get back out to the sites up your way and try our luck on some digs. Thanks again..HH

Thanks for the compliment JARMAN.
I did a little search on-line for the Man of Arms magazine and I'm not sure that you can read it on-line, but you can order back issues. You want the September/October 2006 issue.
Here is a link: http://www.manatarmsbooks.com/oldissue.html#anchor29521447


"Volume Twenty-Eight, Number Five; September/October 2006
Roosevelt Revolver Recovered; Tools & Techniques...White Markings Explained; A Study of Caltrops from Ancient to Modern Times; Pellets, Tubes and Caps; The Lefaucheaux Revolver of John Wysong."

Definitely, when you get back into town, let me know. I'm itching to get back to that CW campsite.

 

[Elvis]

I am going to say yes they are caltrops. My brother and I have found @40 or so of them and that is what they look like after we cleaned them. Some we have found are still somewhat pointed, but others are like the ones you have. Congrats.

 

[JARMAN]

Elvis, Thank you thank you very much. My thoughts were always to thick for jacks. Hope theres more out there for authentication so i can truly label.

 

[Elvis]

Some of the ones we dug looked just like your 1st photo. Once cleaned, photo #2. Here are some of the recent ones we found.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

What's the grid's scale? Were yours smaller than Lincoln Cents? Where found? Did you clean them in a rock tumbler?

 

[JARMAN]

Elvis,
Thanks again for your conformation.Given so many styles of caltrops, and a box was found in a period barn and so many of the same size have been dug from an area of ground known for cw activity, I feel assured that what Ihave are not jacks,and are probaley genuine.

Charlie,
I always respect the opinion of others, regardless. But I have to ask.With no definitive proof that the items might not be genuine, and you yourself on an earlier post,of the above picture remarked how rare and nice a find with congratulations,post now removed. That you are so adamant to discount.

Respectively

JARMAN

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Burden of proof. Honest, there is nothing personal and I am not on a vendetta. I just don't see those objects as Civil War weapons. They are something, and to find out what that something is will help others. If you look back I spend a lot of time researching items as best I can hereabouts to help folks know what they've found. I have found zero evidence of a calthrop of that size or in a highly polished condition.

Pulling evidence off auction sites is also heresay. There is currently a "200 year old rifle barrel" on ebaY that was made in the 1970's. Even says ".50 CAL Made in Italy" on the barrel . . . in English. That's just wrong, possibly fraudulent. (Certainly if someone pays the asking price).

If I dig a .58 three-ring minnie and a .22 LR slug from approximately the same spot should I assume .22 LR cartridges were used in Civil War battles because they are shaped the same and are made of similar materials? How about if I find a .22LR in a drawer in my garage and then make that claim because it is shaped like a .58 minnie?

But hey, If you got Elvis to testify for you who am I to argue? I'm not a Civil War expert, but my middle name is "Lee". ;-)

 

[JARMAN]

Charlie,
Your points are very well taken. Like yourself I beleive in facts and logic. I try to keep an open mind, and beleive anythings possible untill proven otherwise. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Montana Jim]

Well said Charlie... I agree...

JARMAN - Your's could be the post that busts the myth.,.. I'm glad you're keeping an open mind.

In the past few day I was SURE about an ID in another post 'till proved very wrong... It's important that in five years we are not still passing on bad information from the T-Net archives They may actually be miniature non-pointy caltrops... but I'm with Charlie on this one... it doesn't pass muster.

Yet.

 

[JARMAN]

Thanks, MJ That would be nice to bust a myth . I'm not 100% sure on the items, Just some good information has been provided that gives hope. And in the same token not enough has been given to make one give up the hunt. I do appreciate the time folks on the forum put into research,to assist and safeguard other members.That is whats made The TN top of the line on the web. Sometimes controversy strengthens the outcome.