CALIBER NEEDED PLEASE

[Hardy]

HI ALL , CAN ANY ONE GUESS AT WHAT CALIBER THIS MINI IS , I HAVE NOT THE FOGGY'EST IDEA

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Upgraded Night Vision Monocular Digital Infrared Monocular Telescope for 100% Darkness with 8X Zoom - Grab it through Amazon!

[TiredIron]

Dick,
I want to first commend you for your choice of weapons. The art of rolling your Paper Patched bullets is a almost lost skill. Rifle Manufacturers made rifles and stamped on the barrels what their basic caliber was (45...50cal) and the approximate chamber length and left it up to the shooter to learn how to roll an accurate fitting projectile....no easy feat. There were straight wall and bottle necked chambers, straight bullets...tapered bullets etc. As you know once you found the correct onion skin paper of .002 thickness you found the exact number of layers to "stay on"....and not "slip off"....you stayed with it.
I'm not completely sure what you are asking as the rounds for your rifles would not have a two number designation like 50-65....or 50-56....just 50-2-3/8 etc.
Or so I believe. The following is stolen information with a few comments added.
Most "you" will find obvious....but someone else here might find interesting. By the way....what is your actual make and model Rifle (rifles)?

The Sharps Model 1874 was made in four bore sizes with each bore size having a variety of chamber lengths and shapes. For instance in 40 caliber, Model 1874s were cut with straight chambers for cases 1-7/8" and 2-1/2" long. They were also cut for bottleneck cases 1-11/16", 2-1/4", and 2-5/8" long. Confused yet? It gets better with the 45-caliber bore. There, the company only used straight cases in four lengths; 2-1/10", 2-4/10", 2-6/10" and 2-7/8." Furthermore, only the first and last lengths were meant as Sporting Rifle cartridges, while the middle two were chambered in target rifles. Model 1874 barrels were also cut to 44 and 50 caliber. Interesting is the fact that the 40-, 44-, and 50-caliber bore sizes came first in 1871. The .45s didn't begin to appear until about 1875. However, by the end of production the 40 and 45 calibers were considered standard and the 44 and 50 caliber sizes were special order items.
Some Sharps Model 1874 cartridges such as the .40 1-7/8" Straight or .40 1-11/16" Bottleneck used only a 50-grain powder charge and so were meant for short range target shooting. The "long shooting" cartridges, regardless of bore size were those meant to take 70 grains and more of powder. Something that should be mentioned is the most popular of all original Sharps Model 1874 chamberings from 1871 until about 1876 was the .44 with 2-1/4" chamber. In second place was the .50 1-3/4" chambering. After 1876, top dog was the .45 2-1/10" chamber.
Has you noticed I've not called any of these cartridges things like .40-70 Bottleneck, .40-70 Straight, .45-70, .45-90. or any such dual digit name? Why? Because neither did the Sharps Rifle Company of the 1870s. At best, they marked their rifles by bore size and cartridge case length. At worst they simply put the bore size on the top of the barrel such as ".44 Caliber" or ".45 Cal." and let it go at that. They supposed rifle buyers were smart enough to sort out the exact chambering on their own. Sharp-eyed readers might have noticed that the Sharps .45 caliber with 2-1/10" case was the same as the .45 Government, which everyone knows today as the .45-70. They are right, although the Sharps Rifle Company never loaded the cartridge with 70 grains of black powder. Instead they put 75 grains under a 420-grain paper-patched bullet.

Bullet Styles

Someone right now has to be wondering, "what is a paper patched bullet?" During the 10 years of the Sharps Model 1874, the vast bulk of Sharps factory ammo sold, and likewise the bullet moulds made by the company, were for paper patched bullets. Such were simply the bullet being a slightly reduced diameter smooth lead cylinder with roundnose, wrapped in a couple of layers of high quality paper.

The idea was the paper served as a jacket to keep the lead from rubbing on the barrel steel and leaving part of itself in the form of lead fouling. Eventually paper-patched bullets died out to be replaced by grease-groove types. Even today debates rage between the proponents of each type of Sharps bullet. Paper patch bullets are interesting and even fun to assemble because of their history, but the fact remains in modern times no major black powder cartridge rifle competition has been won by them.
"Hardy" ....I'm sorry for deviating from your original post. I'm not sure I can tell much more about your bullet without an accurate weight (in grains) and maybe a clean close-up pic of the bottom (base). Keep diggin' my friend.
adios

TiredIron

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Agony and Death on a Gold Rush Steamer: The Disastrous Sinking of the Side-Wheeler Yankee Blade - Grab it through Amazon!

[dick99344]

Dick,
I want to first commend you for your choice of weapons. The art of rolling your Paper Patched bullets is a almost lost skill. Rifle Manufacturers made rifles and stamped on the barrels what their basic caliber was (45...50cal) and the approximate chamber length and left it up to the shooter to learn how to roll an accurate fitting projectile....no easy feat. There were straight wall and bottle necked chambers, straight bullets...tapered bullets etc. As you know once you found the correct onion skin paper of .002 thickness you found the exact number of layers to "stay on"....and not "slip off"....you stayed with it.
I'm not completely sure what you are asking as the rounds for your rifles would not have a two number designation like 50-65....or 50-56....just 50-2-3/8 etc.
Or so I believe. The following is stolen information with a few comments added.
Most "you" will find obvious....but someone else here might find interesting. By the way....what is your actual make and model Rifle (rifles)?

The Sharps Model 1874 was made in four bore sizes with each bore size having a variety of chamber lengths and shapes. For instance in 40 caliber, Model 1874s were cut with straight chambers for cases 1-7/8" and 2-1/2" long. They were also cut for bottleneck cases 1-11/16", 2-1/4", and 2-5/8" long. Confused yet? It gets better with the 45-caliber bore. There, the company only used straight cases in four lengths; 2-1/10", 2-4/10", 2-6/10" and 2-7/8." Furthermore, only the first and last lengths were meant as Sporting Rifle cartridges, while the middle two were chambered in target rifles. Model 1874 barrels were also cut to 44 and 50 caliber. Interesting is the fact that the 40-, 44-, and 50-caliber bore sizes came first in 1871. The .45s didn't begin to appear until about 1875. However, by the end of production the 40 and 45 calibers were considered standard and the 44 and 50 caliber sizes were special order items.
Some Sharps Model 1874 cartridges such as the .40 1-7/8" Straight or .40 1-11/16" Bottleneck used only a 50-grain powder charge and so were meant for short range target shooting. The "long shooting" cartridges, regardless of bore size were those meant to take 70 grains and more of powder. Something that should be mentioned is the most popular of all original Sharps Model 1874 chamberings from 1871 until about 1876 was the .44 with 2-1/4" chamber. In second place was the .50 1-3/4" chambering. After 1876, top dog was the .45 2-1/10" chamber.
Has you noticed I've not called any of these cartridges things like .40-70 Bottleneck, .40-70 Straight, .45-70, .45-90. or any such dual digit name? Why? Because neither did the Sharps Rifle Company of the 1870s. At best, they marked their rifles by bore size and cartridge case length. At worst they simply put the bore size on the top of the barrel such as ".44 Caliber" or ".45 Cal." and let it go at that. They supposed rifle buyers were smart enough to sort out the exact chambering on their own. Sharp-eyed readers might have noticed that the Sharps .45 caliber with 2-1/10" case was the same as the .45 Government, which everyone knows today as the .45-70. They are right, although the Sharps Rifle Company never loaded the cartridge with 70 grains of black powder. Instead they put 75 grains under a 420-grain paper-patched bullet.

Bullet Styles

Someone right now has to be wondering, "what is a paper patched bullet?" During the 10 years of the Sharps Model 1874, the vast bulk of Sharps factory ammo sold, and likewise the bullet moulds made by the company, were for paper patched bullets. Such were simply the bullet being a slightly reduced diameter smooth lead cylinder with roundnose, wrapped in a couple of layers of high quality paper.

The idea was the paper served as a jacket to keep the lead from rubbing on the barrel steel and leaving part of itself in the form of lead fouling. Eventually paper-patched bullets died out to be replaced by grease-groove types. Even today debates rage between the proponents of each type of Sharps bullet. Paper patch bullets are interesting and even fun to assemble because of their history, but the fact remains in modern times no major black powder cartridge rifle competition has been won by them.
"Hardy" ....I'm sorry for deviating from your original post. I'm not sure I can tell much more about your bullet without an accurate weight (in grains) and maybe a clean close-up pic of the bottom (base). Keep diggin' my friend.
adios

TiredIron

TiredIron,

Thank you for your comments. I have the complete history of Christian Sharps and copies of all of his patents regarding the Sharps rifles up to the time he sold his business for the last time. He was a great inventor of breech loading rifles but generally he is little known. He failed more than once in his businesses as he was not a great business man. His paper cartridges were all hand wound and assembled by women in a seperate building from his main factory. He chose to employ women because of their patience, there ability to sit still for long periods of time, and their manual dexterity with their hands. No bad reflection on the ladies here, but it is said that he encouraged them to talk, gossip, visit all they wanted as long as they kept their hands moving. He paid them an unheard of sum of $4.75 per day in the middle 1800'S. A side note here: Many a wounded soldier of the civil war on the battle field eventually died by being burned to death before they could be helped. This was because the papers used were nitrated and were designed to consume them selves after leaving the barrel. These papers would catch the brush and grasses of the field of battle on fire where the wounded lay. Ref: Gettysburg

I have a: .54 cal. Sharps Sporting rifle equiped with medium range creedmore sights (calibrated to 600 yards). Reproduction made by Uberti in Italy.

.54 cal Hawkins Rifle equiped with double set triggers, 1 in 48 twist. Made by Thompson Center Arms, USA. Built it as a kit.

.50 cal Frontier Carbine. 1 in 48 twist. Made by CVA.

2 ea .50 cal Hawkins Pistols. 1 in 78 twist for round balls only. Made by CVA. Built these as a kit.

2 ea .44 cal 1858 Army Remington Revolvers. Both made by Traditions Arms

A .44 cal 1858 Army framed Buffalo stainless steel, Barrel is 18 inches long. Equiped with target sights.

A .44 cal 1847 Colt Walker. The original Horse Pistol. Considered by many to be the Magnum of revolvers for that period in time. Each chamber will load up 60 grains of Pyrodex P. When this thing talks at the range, people take note. Col. Walker was to carry 2 of them in saddle holsters into battle. Unfortunately, he was killed just days before they were to arrive to his location. This revolver was designed to reach out and touch someone at 100 yards. Ref: Mexican-American war of 1847.

I have or I can make everything needed to shoot all of these weapons.

Hardy, I to aplogize for taking this off topic and I am glad you have solved the question as to the caliber of the bullet you found. I apologize to every one on this form for my ramble. have a good day and happy hunting.

 

[Monty]

Just wanted to clarify I am not a "purist" and didn't say I was. I referred to someone who was a purist and was thinking of any one of several handgun shooters I know who have corrected me. I could care less what you call a handgun, I probably am capable of figuring it out. I've been on this forum long enough to know it is just a matter of time before someone jumps in and makes an issue of it. I was just heading them off. M nty