CALIBER NEEDED PLEASE

[Hardy]

HI ALL , CAN ANY ONE GUESS AT WHAT CALIBER THIS MINI IS , I HAVE NOT THE FOGGY'EST IDEA

 

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[truckinbutch]

Compared to the fingers it looks more like a .32 or .44 pistol round rather than a Minie .

 

[Hardy]

THAT WOULD BE BLACK POWDER RITE ??

 

[haybudden2]

Scaling off your photo, it looks very close to
50 Cal. which most likely would be black powder
as it doesn't appear to be a modern round.

Hay2

 

[TiredIron]

Come on.....you bullet diggers need to spend a couple of bucks for a cheap micrometer or at least a caliper. We don't know if you have fingers like bratwurst or the diameter of a Canadian penny.... Least I don't.

TiredIron

 

[Hardy]

CRAPS, I GOT A CALIPER IN THE GARAGE, OLD TIMERS MUST BE SETTING IN PS; CANADIAN PENNIES ARE THE SAME SIZE A THE U.S

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Now were talkin'.......take four measurements around and give us an average.
Also see if you can see any rifling grooves. I think Hay2 is going to be pretty close at .50 Looks kinda like a Burnside Carbine bullet which is a little larger at .520.

TiredIron

 

[Montana Jim]

I'm not sure who the manufacturer might be... but you can compare it to these CW era known makes. There's every chance it's a Canadian made round by a Canadian manufacturer? Check out this link... it's a great resource but I'm not sure I found a match there to compare yours to.

http://www.baymediapro.com/collection/bulletsearch.htm

 

[TiredIron]

Its true that all the Civil War made Burnsides were .54cal but also made in .52cal earlier. Its always interesting when someone finds a bullet and asks if it from the Civil War...or time frame. Weapons were made before and during....and certainly shot for 100 years later. Its a tough call.... I now think (after staring at it) that Hardy's bullet has a different profile than the Burnside. Exact measurement....weight....and photos of the base are everything.
Here's a few Burnsides....which I now think....its not.
http://www.virginiarelics.com/pc2357.htm

TiredIron

 

[Hardy]

THANX GUYS, FOR ALL YOUR HELP AND I WILL POST THE MEASURMENTS TONIGHT, ONE THING IS THAT THIS WAS FOUND

WITH IN 50 FEET OF THIS LARGE MUSKETT BALL AND RAMROD AND WORM TIP. I HAVE NOT ATTEMPTED TO OPEN THE

RAMROD YET

 

[slowreaper]

I am looking forward to the measurement, personally from the photo I think it is smaller then a .50... but that is half the fun of it.. testing your self.

Brad

 

[Monty]

The ogive seems to be shorter than on the pics of the Burnside bullets. I'm thinking .44 caliber cap and ball revolver. It might be interesting to note that a revolver is not a pistol. A pistol is anything that is not a revolver while a revolver is self explanatory. Shooting purists will correct you right away if you call a revolver a pistol. If you use the term "handgun" you can't go wrong.....unless of course it is a longarm. Just a bit of nomenclature information and probably more than anyone wanted to know. Monty

 

[haybudden2]

....................?

Hay2

 

[dick99344]

HI ALL , CAN ANY ONE GUESS AT WHAT CALIBER THIS MINI IS , I HAVE NOT THE FOGGY'EST IDEA

This is a photo of a .44 cal. conical that I mould for my .44 cal 1858 Army Remington. It mics at .450 diameter X .560 in length. It weighs 13 grams or 200.620 grains. Some may argue that this is a .45 cal round, but it must be slightly larger for a snug fit in the chamber. a .44 cal round ball (.454) will actually get a small ring shaved of the ball when loaded in the chamber.

the other photo is a .54 cal modern casting of a sharps minie ball used in my 1863 Sharps sporting rifle. it mics at .525 and is .850 in length and weighs 28.8 grams or 444.450 grains. Some may argue that this bullet would be .52 cal, howerver this mould was custom made to match the actual bore of my rifle (which was determined by slugging the bore) so that I could use paper patching on the bullet to help prevent lead fouling in the bore. My actual bore is .554.

Back in the good old days, barrel bore diameters could differ greatly. I use a .490 round ball in my Hawkins .50 cal with a .015 cotton ticking patch. So, if the the actual bore diameter is not known, it may be difficult to ascertain the exact caliber of the weapon. But knowing the actual dimensions of found bullets should get you in the ball park. Bullet moulds, old originals or new reproductions, will vary greatly in size also.

These are modern castings made from "DEAD" lead, dead lead shrinks as it cools in the mould. To minimize shrinkage, you have to preheat the mould before casting. You may find some bullets that are old with similar appearances to these.
All weapons listed here are reproductions.

 

[Hardy]

ok, its spot on at .500 =1/2 inch and its hight is 5/8 inch , so I take it as a 50 cal.

 

[TiredIron]

What we know for sure now. Its old...its .500 in diameter....Hay2 scaled the diameter correctly.
I "think" its a cartridge projectile personally.

Now, if there's any field of knowledge that is full of confusing terminology, it's bullet and bore diameters and cartridge designations. Naming a bullet or cartridge based on its actual bore diameter is relatively recent, 20th century, in fact. The bullet in a Spencer .56-50 cartridge is not .56 inch, it's a nominal .52 (.512 to .519) inch diameter. The .56 is the diameter of the cartridge case, not the bullet. Some other examples: the .38-40 bullet is .40 inch; a .38 Special bullet is .358 inch; the bore of a .44 caliber percussion revolver is .451 inch; the bore of a .36 caliber percussion revolver is .375 inch; the .44 Russian, Special and Magnum bullets are all .429 inch; and so on. Fun, eh?
Makers of early cartridge arms had to invent methods of naming the cartridges, since there was at the time no established convention. One of the early established cartridge arms was the Spencer repeating rifle, which saw service in the American Civil War. It was named based on the chamber dimensions, rather than the bore diameter, with the earliest cartridge called the "No. 56 cartridge," indicating a chamber diameter of .56 inch; the bore diameter varied considerably, from .52 to .54 inch. Later various derivatives were created using the same basic cartridge but with smaller diameter bullets; these were named by the cartridge diameter at the base and mouth. The original No. 56 became the .56-56, and the smaller versions, .56-52, .56-50, and .56-46. The .56-52, the most common of the new calibers, used a .50 caliber bullet.
Most this was gleaned off the internet.

TiredIron

 

[truckinbutch]

I'm not going to beat up Monty for being a purist . I was wrong when I posted and knew it . Just lazy .
A sure way to determine bore and chamber dimensions of a particular arm is to use the molten sulphur casting method .
Jim

 

[dick99344]

What we know for sure now. Its old...its .500 in diameter....Hay2 scaled the diameter correctly.
I "think" its a cartridge projectile personally.

Now, if there's any field of knowledge that is full of confusing terminology, it's bullet and bore diameters and cartridge designations. Naming a bullet or cartridge based on its actual bore diameter is relatively recent, 20th century, in fact. The bullet in a Spencer .56-50 cartridge is not .56 inch, it's a nominal .52 (.512 to .519) inch diameter. The .56 is the diameter of the cartridge case, not the bullet. Some other examples: the .38-40 bullet is .40 inch; a .38 Special bullet is .358 inch; the bore of a .44 caliber percussion revolver is .451 inch; the bore of a .36 caliber percussion revolver is .375 inch; the .44 Russian, Special and Magnum bullets are all .429 inch; and so on. Fun, eh?
Makers of early cartridge arms had to invent methods of naming the cartridges, since there was at the time no established convention. One of the early established cartridge arms was the Spencer repeating rifle, which saw service in the American Civil War. It was named based on the chamber dimensions, rather than the bore diameter, with the earliest cartridge called the "No. 56 cartridge," indicating a chamber diameter of .56 inch; the bore diameter varied considerably, from .52 to .54 inch. Later various derivatives were created using the same basic cartridge but with smaller diameter bullets; these were named by the cartridge diameter at the base and mouth. The original No. 56 became the .56-56, and the smaller versions, .56-52, .56-50, and .56-46. The .56-52, the most common of the new calibers, used a .50 caliber bullet.
Most this was gleaned off the internet.

TiredIron

TiredIron,

Great info on cartridge ammunition. I agree with you and I also believe the bullet may possibly be for a cartridge round, perhaps a straight sided Sharps cartridge or similar firearm in this caliber. Many of these were sized for "Thumb press" loading into a black powder brass cartridge. It would probably be a good fit for my .50 cal Frontier Carbine muzzleloader.

Perhaps you could give me your assessment of the rounds in the photo below:

Cartridge on the right is designated a Sharps .54 cal. 444 grain, hollow base, paper patched bullet. It is loaded into a nitrated paper cartridge with a total length 0f 3 3/8 inches with a diameter of .558 for a snug thumb press fit for proper seating into the barrel of my rifle. The cartridge is loaded with 70 grains by volume of Pyrodex Select black powder substitute. The rifle is a black powder/percussion weapon using RWS musket caps. In your opinion, would this be a .54 cal. or a near .56 cal cartridge. Slugged barrel diameter is .554. my mould will produce a .525 bullet. Paper patching brings the diameter up to .558. Both the rifle and my Lyman mould are designated .54 cal. Black powder. The pattern for the paper cartridge came from Christian Sharps patent.

Cartridge on the left: This is a brass cartridge it is made to similar specs. as the paper cartridge. It also has a Pyrodex load of 70 grains by volume. Using the same bullet diameter. Notice that the neck of the cartridge has been sized down by a slight taper to the same diameter of the bullet, .558. The end of the bullet has been trimmed down in a lathe for a snug thumb press fit into the the neck of the cartridge. The bullet and the end of the cartridge is then lightly sealed with bees wax. The overall case diameter is .614. The brass cartridge is not exactly a straight sided nor is it a true bottleneck design. The cartridge has a small hole in the end for ignition of the propellent charge by the musket cap. How would you classify this cartridge? Both cartridges shoot very well, I prefer the brass cartridge because it helps to seal the gas pressures better.

Thanks for your time in reading this ramble. I end the topic here.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Muzzleloading hunting season started this morning here in S. Florida but I didnt know all of that. I didnt know there was a muzzle loading "cartridge" ignited by a musket cap. I use 2-50 grain Pyrodex pellets and a shotgun primer... Interesting.

In my other CVA mountain rifle I built in the 80's from a kit, I use black powder, a patch and .45 cal. round ball.

 

[dick99344]

Muzzleloading hunting season started this morning here in S. Florida but I didnt know all of that. I didnt know there was a muzzle loading "cartridge" ignited by a musket cap. I use 2-50 grain Pyrodex pellets and a shotgun primer... Interesting.

In my other CVA mountain rifle I built in the 80's from a kit, I use black powder, a patch and .45 cal. round ball.

These cartridges are fired from a breech loading Sharps percussion rifle. It is a reproduction of the 1863 Sharps Sporting rifle. You would drop the breech block (Lever type action), insert the paper cartridge, close the breech block, place a musket cap on the nipple and fire the weapon. There is a sharp cutting edge along the top of the breech block that would cut the end of the paper cartridge off exposing the powder charge to the fire channel in the block. The brass cartridge works like any brass cartridge except that it has a small hole ( 1/8 inch) in the end of the casing that is exposed to the fire channel in the block. To keep the powder charge from exiting the case, I place a single layer of medical gauze in the very bottom of the case. I pour in 70 grains by volume of Pryodex Select, I then place a felt wad on top of the powder charge and then I thumb press the bullet into the case and lightly seal the bullet and a small portion of the case neck with bees wax, they work great.

CORRECTION: the overall length of the paper cartridges 2 3/8 inches, not 3 3/8 inches as stated above. The brass cartridges are 2 1/4 inches long.

Good luck on your hunt.