Cache hunting vs. archaeologists

[patpall22]

I studied archeology in collage and would get into some heated debates with my professor in arch ethics class. I could never get my head around the idea of site caping witch is done more often then not now. Waiting to dig up a site due to insufficient funds and showing the world where it is seems counterintuitive. I think the major point that my professor was trying to make was the fact that ethically archeologists will not work with privet investors or treasure hunters here in the states because they don't want to sent the wrong message that t-hunting and privet collections are ok. personally i think that archeologists should go wherever they are allowed to document new finds if allowed to and record the activity. seems silly to not take advantage of every opportunity to connect the dots. JMO

 

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[Honest Samuel]

Personnel, I let the Archaeologists do their thing, and I will do my thing, searching for single coins and buried treasures in the great state of Connecticut, and enjoy the great outdoors, and meeting new treasure hunters.

 

[MiddenMonster]

Old thread, but I still run into this crap on a daily basis. How many of you people *****ing about archaeologists have a degree in archeaology or anthropology? None of you? Shocking. I put you in the same category of people who think that vaccinations cause autism. Is it possible that the people who go to school for 4 to 6, even 10 years probably know more about things than you do? The world isn't against your TH'ing. We all want the same thing, which is why we do what we do. Educate yourselves instead of just crying about it. 9/11 wasn't an inside job, the Boston Marathon was not a false flag, Sandy Hook wasn't a bunch of actors, and archeaologist's aren't out to F you over.

Kind of a straw man lumping the conspiracy stuff in with this. But your statements are factually incorrect when it comes to archaeologists. In Great Britain (and much of the world) you do not have any real rights to your coin/metals finds, even if they are found on private land, and this is because of the advocacy of archaeologists. In some cases you don't get compensated at all, and the rules apply to anything historical. They are taken, assessed a value and you are paid on that basis...and then taxed. Most archaeologists are opposed to individuals removing finds--especially pottery sherds in situ because they believe it negates the contextual value of the find. There are also archaeologists who are cultural crusaders and believe finds should be repatriated to their mother culture, even if that is a subjective determination. But instead of complaining and throwing out conspiracy nonsense just tell us: Do you believe an individual should have 100% of the rights to their non-human remains finds on private land, or don't you? For example, if I find a cache of Aztec gold on my property in Tennessee do you believe I am entitled to do with it as I please, including keeping it or selling it (in total or piecemeal) for a price of my choosing? Or do you believe that the government has the right to appropriate it and put it on a display in a museum without my consent--or worse, repatriate it to Mexico, which didn't even exist at the time of the Aztecs?

 

[MiddenMonster]

I'm getting old and I intend to do my own thing, keep a low profile and keep my mouth shut.

Like I've said on many occasions: Adhere to the "3 S's"--Sift, Shovel and Shut up.

 

[100acre]

New guy just throwing this out there. In my past I was employed as an archaeologist. It was a readily available way for me to enjoy the things I loved most which is the history of man and all of his creations. As much as I enjoy museums, I also am a treasure hunter to my core. I absolutely love doing the historical research and will spend many hours pouring over material. I also love the thrill of finding something no one has touched for many many years. To me it's my reward for diligent study. I cannot stand the over reaching arm of the regulating hands of big brother. If the soldiers of one army or another from a long time ago shot a cannon and if I found the ball, why do they need to keep it in the ground to rust away? One army's trash is another man's treasure but, I will always frustratingly respect historically protected places. All I ask of folks on here is to not judge me by my training or whom I've worked for as I too am as much a hunter as you!

 

[100acre]

One issue that changed it for me was when I first moved to this area, I was fresh from the fields of archaeology out west in Montana and Wyoming. I wanted to continue in this line of work but the only thing in the area was a small($$$) Warren Wilson college in the area doing an Indian dig site from the Eastern Woodland Period. After meeting with them and showing my credentials they said that if I want to volunteer, that I had to pay them $400. Among other reasons like personal collecting, it very well soured my feelings for many academics.

 

[Nitric]

New guy just throwing this out there. In my past I was employed as an archaeologist. It was a readily available way for me to enjoy the things I loved most which is the history of man and all of his creations. As much as I enjoy museums, I also am a treasure hunter to my core. I absolutely love doing the historical research and will spend many hours pouring over material. I also love the thrill of finding something no one has touched for many many years. To me it's my reward for diligent study. I cannot stand the over reaching arm of the regulating hands of big brother. If the soldiers of one army or another from a long time ago shot a cannon and if I found the ball, why do they need to keep it in the ground to rust away? One army's trash is another man's treasure but, I will always frustratingly respect historically protected places. All I ask of folks on here is to not judge me by my training or whom I've worked for as I too am as much a hunter as you!

I think there is a difference! With any field you have some people on power trips(?), Look down on anyone not "educated" in that field. Well, I can tell you from experience in other things sometimes that "education" only gives them arrogance, and even closes their mind.

I also agree with you!! Some of this stuff is ridiculous!! You know how many building,streets,strip mining,farming,etc..disturbed sites? There is so much lost from progress that a hand full of people finding and keeping some stuff will never matter! So what it's a cannon ball! like you said it will lay there and rot! What are they protecting? There are hundreds or thousands of them. it's not a one of a kind artifact!

Same with some Indian artifacts, You can put roads, sub divisions, malls, etc..over them, haul them away mixed in dirt in dump trucks, but if a guy collected and preserved them his whole life could have them taken away with some piece of law that was overlooked?

In ohio, there is a place called Nobles pond. https://www.cmnh.org/paleocrossing

If you saw where this was located you would laugh!!! Shopping centers and houses!! I heard through the grape vine, on one of the building sites they scooped up bones, well, the builder freaked out and told the guys "Get that S### out of here and no one talks, they will stop my job"! How many times did that happen in history!! In that area there is no way they got everything out of the ground when they did their dig. How many bones and artifacts were hauled out or covered over of by "progress".

Anyhow!!! I'm just rambling away!! And don't get me wrong if I dug into something that I thought was significant I would contact the right people. I think there are things that are really important for study!

Welcome!!! by the way!!!!! And noooo!! There's no hating on the new guy!

 

[MiddenMonster]

If you saw where this was located you would laugh!!! Shopping centers and houses!! I heard through the grape vine, on one of the building sites they scooped up bones, well, the builder freaked out and told the guys "Get that S### out of here and no one talks, they will stop my job"! How many times did that happen in history!! In that area there is no way they got everything out of the ground when they did their dig. How many bones and artifacts were hauled out or covered over of by "progress".

I think there are a lot of states now that require an archeological survey before any major construction project can begin. I think if I found bones while digging I'd definitely report them. They could be those of a crime victim, and tampering with crime scene evidence would be a bigger problem for you than disturbing an ancient site.

 

[TroutBumDave]

Kind of a straw man lumping the conspiracy stuff in with this. But your statements are factually incorrect when it comes to archaeologists. In Great Britain (and much of the world) you do not have any real rights to your coin/metals finds, even if they are found on private land, and this is because of the advocacy of archaeologists. In some cases you don't get compensated at all, and the rules apply to anything historical. They are taken, assessed a value and you are paid on that basis...and then taxed. Most archaeologists are opposed to individuals removing finds--especially pottery sherds in situ because they believe it negates the contextual value of the find. There are also archaeologists who are cultural crusaders and believe finds should be repatriated to their mother culture, even if that is a subjective determination. But instead of complaining and throwing out conspiracy nonsense just tell us: Do you believe an individual should have 100% of the rights to their non-human remains finds on private land, or don't you? For example, if I find a cache of Aztec gold on my property in Tennessee do you believe I am entitled to do with it as I please, including keeping it or selling it (in total or piecemeal) for a price of my choosing? Or do you believe that the government has the right to appropriate it and put it on a display in a museum without my consent--or worse, repatriate it to Mexico, which didn't even exist at the time of the Aztecs?

Ya, the conspiracy stuff was over the top and obnoxious -- sorry about that, I must've been having one of those days... To answer your question, if you're on private land and have permission, then hell yes, you should keep every drop of it, assuming you tell us about it on here so we can all be jealous. I personally have zero problem picking up sherds, arrowheads, and other artifacts that I find out in the boonies, because like some of you, the thought of it just rotting away in the ground is nauseating. In short, unless you're digging up a protected spot or you have to be "sneaky" about what you're doing, then I could not care less about how you TH or what you do with what you find.

New guy just throwing this out there. In my past I was employed as an archaeologist. It was a readily available way for me to enjoy the things I loved most which is the history of man and all of his creations. As much as I enjoy museums, I also am a treasure hunter to my core. I absolutely love doing the historical research and will spend many hours pouring over material. I also love the thrill of finding something no one has touched for many many years. To me it's my reward for diligent study. I cannot stand the over reaching arm of the regulating hands of big brother. If the soldiers of one army or another from a long time ago shot a cannon and if I found the ball, why do they need to keep it in the ground to rust away? One army's trash is another man's treasure but, I will always frustratingly respect historically protected places. All I ask of folks on here is to not judge me by my training or whom I've worked for as I too am as much a hunter as you!

Agreed, all the way.

I think there is a difference! With any field you have some people on power trips(?), Look down on anyone not "educated" in that field. Well, I can tell you from experience in other things sometimes that "education" only gives them arrogance, and even closes their mind.

I also agree with you!! Some of this stuff is ridiculous!! You know how many building,streets,strip mining,farming,etc..disturbed sites? There is so much lost from progress that a hand full of people finding and keeping some stuff will never matter! So what it's a cannon ball! like you said it will lay there and rot! What are they protecting? There are hundreds or thousands of them. it's not a one of a kind artifact!

Same with some Indian artifacts, You can put roads, sub divisions, malls, etc..over them, haul them away mixed in dirt in dump trucks, but if a guy collected and preserved them his whole life could have them taken away with some piece of law that was overlooked?

In ohio, there is a place called Nobles pond. https://www.cmnh.org/paleocrossing

If you saw where this was located you would laugh!!! Shopping centers and houses!! I heard through the grape vine, on one of the building sites they scooped up bones, well, the builder freaked out and told the guys "Get that S### out of here and no one talks, they will stop my job"! How many times did that happen in history!! In that area there is no way they got everything out of the ground when they did their dig. How many bones and artifacts were hauled out or covered over of by "progress".

Anyhow!!! I'm just rambling away!! And don't get me wrong if I dug into something that I thought was significant I would contact the right people. I think there are things that are really important for study!

Welcome!!! by the way!!!!! And noooo!! There's no hating on the new guy!

Arrogant fools infiltrate everything, everywhere; lumping the 99.9% that aren't jackholes in with them is frustrating.

 

[Nitric]

Ya, the conspiracy stuff was over the top and obnoxious -- sorry about that, I must've been having one of those days... To answer your question, if you're on private land and have permission, then hell yes, you should keep every drop of it, assuming you tell us about it on here so we can all be jealous. I personally have zero problem picking up sherds, arrowheads, and other artifacts that I find out in the boonies, because like some of you, the thought of it just rotting away in the ground is nauseating. In short, unless you're digging up a protected spot or you have to be "sneaky" about what you're doing, then I could not care less about how you TH or what you do with what you find.



Agreed, all the way.



Arrogant fools infiltrate everything, everywhere; lumping the 99.9% that aren't jackholes in with them is frustrating.

Yes, I just think that both should want to work together. instead of be at war. And some of it does get carried away from all ends. If I uncovered dino bones or any kind of site. as an example, I would call someone to check it out! I wouldn't want the credit even, but as the finder would like to be along for the whole process. I also want to keep my find or have that option after study was done. Not just roped out and have it taken away. Or looked at as some hillbilly that just stumbled upon it......

Anyhow, I just don't feel we're all that much different in the end...I'm also the kind of person that has the interest of the stuff in the ground to learn from, not value, for money. for the most part..

With all that nonsense said? I really don't know details of law, or have I found anything more than pop tabs and few chipped arrowheads.

This brings me to the question.....If I owned a potential site? And I opened it to study, would I get to keep items after the study was done. Or have that option?
Kind of off topic but I'm curious about this...

OHHH!!! I looked at my link above again, it's not to Nobles pond. Not that it matters. I must have copied and pasted wrong link...

 

[Nitric]

I think there are a lot of states now that require an archeological survey before any major construction project can begin. I think if I found bones while digging I'd definitely report them. They could be those of a crime victim, and tampering with crime scene evidence would be a bigger problem for you than disturbing an ancient site.

I agree!! I was just using it as an example of what I think happens.Probably more than we'd like to think about or maybe did in the past.........Ya, that's not the way I would have dealt with it either. But it would have been out of my own curiosity too!!

 

[Honest Samuel]

While this is a old forum, I feel a need to response. I believe that Archaeologists are really treasure hunters. I believe, we, treasure hunters are entitle to find water and buried treasures, and share with the owners, and pay our income taxes, and support our families, and enjoy the hunt.

This is # 18, and I did not change my mind.

 

[Nitric]

This is # 18, and I did not change my mind.

You may be right! But I think we can split "Treasure Hunters" into different groups.....One is for the money and wealth, the other is for the History and learning. Most people Get the impression of a "Treasure hunter" .....(I can't think of any names right now brain dead!)...The guys that raided and raped Archy sites years ago...Some of them were called or named themselves "Archaeologists"....So, I think both side are mislabeled or redefined since that period.....or

SOOOO...I believe you are right...Depending on perception(?)

OH, Hell I have no clue what I'm trying to say! I just wanted to ramble about something that I really don't know about!

 

[MiddenMonster]

This brings me to the question.....If I owned a potential site? And I opened it to study, would I get to keep items after the study was done. Or have that option?
Kind of off topic but I'm curious about this...

If you owned a potential site and there were no laws limiting your rights you could pretty much call the tune when it came to defining how a did would take place. On the other hand, a lot of university archaeologists might not agree to your terms if they involved you taking immediate possession and keeping everything, and making money off of it. At minimum, you would probably have to agree to a significant time period for them to study what was found, and maybe even some time for them to be displayed at the university or museum. And they will certainly have a cow when you want to sell the artifacts piecemeal to the highest bidder.

 

[MiddenMonster]

OH, Hell I have no clue what I'm trying to say! I just wanted to ramble about something that I really don't know about!

You do know those are symptoms of gold fever, don't you?

 

[audigger53]

OK here's my bigoted belief about Arch's. They want to have the credit and the Grant Money for digging a site and not let someone else keep them from the money and prestige. At least here in the States.
Example: Dinosaur State Park in Texas. 2 gentlemen spent 20 years looking for dinosaurs in the State of Texas, getting permission from ranches to go on their land to look. Everyone thought they were crazy, then they found the focalized footprints in rock of Dino's. The arch's at the Park grumble about them having found it as the were not "Experts". Unless pressed about the finding they won't even mention the 2 guys.
It's about the $ and the Fame that they are after. That's why they scream about "Treasure Hunters". We are taking away their chance at Grants ($) and the chance to write it up (Fame).

 

[bill from lachine]

100acre,

No problem we have an archeologist who's a member of the Canadian forum I'm involved with and we coached him on detecting all through his university years and now he does both.

Odds are the attitude comes from the hierarchy and the minions are expected to toe the line and treat detectorists as lepers probably out of professional jealousy and they see us as competition.....well frankly I could care less what they think going forward.

I don't let me repeat don't detect any historically protected sites nor will I detect in any areas that would put our community in a bad light.

Regards + HH

Bill

New guy just throwing this out there. In my past I was employed as an archaeologist. It was a readily available way for me to enjoy the things I loved most which is the history of man and all of his creations. As much as I enjoy museums, I also am a treasure hunter to my core. I absolutely love doing the historical research and will spend many hours pouring over material. I also love the thrill of finding something no one has touched for many many years. To me it's my reward for diligent study. I cannot stand the over reaching arm of the regulating hands of big brother. If the soldiers of one army or another from a long time ago shot a cannon and if I found the ball, why do they need to keep it in the ground to rust away? One army's trash is another man's treasure but, I will always frustratingly respect historically protected places. All I ask of folks on here is to not judge me by my training or whom I've worked for as I too am as much a hunter as you!

 

[Honest Samuel]

One issue that changed it for me was when I first moved to this area, I was fresh from the fields of archaeology out west in Montana and Wyoming. I wanted to continue in this line of work but the only thing in the area was a small($$$) Warren Wilson college in the area doing an Indian dig site from the Eastern Woodland Period. After meeting with them and showing my credentials they said that if I want to volunteer, that I had to pay them $400. Among other reasons like personal collecting, it very well soured my feelings for many academics.

Became a treasure hunter and you will feel better. Good hunting and good luck.

 

[Johnnybravo300]

Don't feel bad. My son graduated college with a biology degree and a minor in psychology and his first job was a janitor at the college he went to haha.
Not only did he clean the toilets but he also understands why $h1t stinks. It's a double edged sword but it was good for him and he moved on eventually.

 

[Honest Samuel]

We all wish your son the best of luck.