Button Find

[West Coast Fever]

Actually I found this several years ago, but just cannot seem to get a good fix on it. The stamp on the back is indicative of 1850-1865. "Scovill MF'G Co. Waterbury". There are no stars or dots between any of the words, other than the period after Co. This was gold guilded, is a soldered eye, and is in otherwise very fine shape. It seems to be primarily brass, and that includes the back. It is two piece. I can not find any real picture of this particular button, but have seen many similar made by Waterbury Brass, but not Scovill. I hope that it is older than 1900, so if any one out there can help it would be appreciated.

 

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[chipveres]

According to:

http://pw1.netcom.com/~jimyce/bm.html

your button was probably made between 1850 and 1865.

Chip V.

 

[funkman]

I agree that the backmark indicates it was produced between 1850 and 1865 but the design is of the Great Seal buttons that were made from 1902 and on. Kinda puzzling but maybe someone else will chime in and give you a better ID of your button.

HH

Funkman

 

[West Coast Fever]

Funkman,

You see the problem I see. But, I have also found on the web that other buttons made by Waterbury Co. in the 1850-70 timeframe used this "Great Seal" of the US design (or so that is the date time frame given to the examples I have seen after hours of searching the web). So, although I cannot find any examples of a Scovill button like this anywhere on the web, I can only go by the generalization that has been given regarding the backside. I have no way of knowing whether or not the available information regarding that is actually accurate, or if it is just a "rule of thumb", and that there may be variants to the rule.

A couple of key things to consider are the soldered loop, not just inserted as was more common in the early 20th century according to sources on the web. The other thing is that, unlike many other similar Scovill buttons I have seen, this button has no extra stars or dots between the upper and lower words. While I have seen some other fine examples of buttons with a back identical to mine, I have not seen one with this design on the front. Seems strange, but perhaps there was a misconception regarding the use of the Great Seal and many collectors think they are not as old as they might be.

This sure is a very confusing but enjoyable hobby. I really just want to know the real truth about this button, as best as can be figured out. I am hoping that some button expert here will see it and say "I know what that is".

Anyway, I have a small cannon ball to show next ( I think it is a cannon ball, or a grape shot for a cannon). At least that is what I am hoping it is. I also found what appears to be a cannon ball wick fitting. Solid brass/copper, threaded a bit, hole through the center, used.
It might seem odd to find something like that here in Santa Clara, CA at first glance, but after one reads up on the history of the area, there have been small battles waged in the very area that it was found during the Mexican Wars. Just need to go back and read that again to refresh my understanding. I first thought it was some sort of odd large spark plug of some sort, then tossed it in the can. After looking at some stuff while searching for the BUTTON id, I ran into an exact picture of the piece I had found and almost fell out of my chair. If it turns out to be real, then I am going to give it to the local museum if they want it. It would represent some of the local history.

 

[Montana Jim]

The US Government has used the "great seal" in one form or another since adopted in 1782.

But not on US Army buttons until 1902 when they dropped the "Eagle" button pattern.

http://metaldetectingworld.com/05_photo_gallery/05_great_seal_but_1902/index.htm

The back mark can be attributed to old button back stocks, or, an undocumented pattern that is like the older patterns. My opinion is that they just used old, already in stock, backs. When someone with a book comes along you'll find that the on-line references are limited, and only a guideline.

Your button is in incredible shape... was it dug?

But, I have also found on the web that other buttons made by Waterbury Co. in the 1850-70 timeframe used this "Great Seal" of the US design (or so that is the date time frame given to the examples I have seen after hours of searching the web). So, although I cannot find any examples of a Scovill button like this anywhere on the web, I can only go by the generalization that has been given regarding the backside.

Did you keep the references? I'd like to read them...

 

[Montana Jim]

There is this odd reference... which leads a person to believe that all enlisted men wore the great seal buttons by 1854... which I have a problem with since the Indian War era soldiers were ALL still wearing the Eagle buttons. So... I'm not sure how to handle this text.

"U.S. Great Seal Button
With the adoption of the Great Seal in 1783, Army buttons begin to reflect it. By 1854 all enlisted personnel wore -- and after 1902 all personnel had -- the Great Seal button, except engineer officers, who retained their distinctive branch button. "

http://www.army.mil/symbols/uniformtraditions2.html

I think this is a much better reference...

http://www.thetreasuredepot.com/issue5/civilwar.htm

 

[DaChief]

I can see some old guy over 100 years ago thinking about what he could do to puzzle the lot of us with our computers and electronic treasure detectors. He was saying to himself. "What if I take 50 year old backing and place it on a modern button?" That ought to keep them going for a while with their new fangled machines!

 

[West Coast Fever]

Hey guys,

Here is a link that will take you to a loadable PDF regarding military uniforms from inception to current. Pretty good guide I suppose, but still a bit light on the button issue.

At this point, I am going to believe that the button was made for the 1902 Army Standard Dress Uniform. It was guilded, so that indicates that it was dress, as opposed to plain brass. I am still going to research the issue. But, it is safe to say that it is at least in the early 1900s.

I found the button in Golden Gate Park, San Francisco. Certainly there are a great many items of history in that parks dirt, especially since the population of San Francisco lived in temporary housing (tents) there after the great earthquake of 1906. I also found a nice Indian head there on the same day, different hole. This button was dug, in an area off the beaten track of the regular park area. It was not especially deep, nor was it difficult to pull. I am sure there could be hundreds of reasons why it ended up there, something to dream about while sleeping I supose.

The only real inconsistent element, which just requires some clarification, is the type of ring on the back. supposedly, they were inserted and somwhat loose by the turn of the century. This one is soldered. The Theory of the 50 year old backing could be plausable, but seems unlikely considering all of the years of supplying buttons to the military, as well as others. Not that it is not a possibility, but one that I think only Scovill might be able to solve. I am going to see if I can find a Scovill historian. My understanding is that the company kept impeccable records into the 20th century. They were very advanced in the way they treated employees, and kept very good records. I would think that someone should be able to clear up the stamp and backing issue. It is clearly possible that what is on the web is just an accumulation of many very good guesses based on very common knowledge, but when it comes right down to the little details, there needs to be a more de-facto method to positively say " This is from such and such time frame".

if any of you come accross any additional clues to the Scovill history, or chance across a site that might offer more info, I would be glad to see it.

Thanks for all your effort and help so far.

today, 13 cents, a couple wheel weights, a "what is it" to be posted later, and some iron stuff.

thanks for reading.

 

[Felinepeachy]

Is this the same type?

 

[West Coast Fever]

See.......there we go again.

You see that post, it shows the Coat of Arms or US Great Seal. The Wording is exact, howerver that button has a Raised Letter in a Depression area (the accronym for that escapes me right now ...R?D?). Supposedly, this style back is a guarantee (according to some Pundits on the web) that it is of civil war era. That does not mean however that if it is not this style that it is not. So, again no real test without a counter.

I will say however, that if you know this button picture to be of Civil War time frame, then it proves that the Great Seal, or Coat of Arms, was and had been in use prior to 1902. That said, I can also state that I have seen Waterbury Company buttons just like the one you posted for comparison.

Thank you for posting that picture. If you look closely, mine is not indented on the back, and my lettering is stamped where yours is relief lettering (raised letters). The wording is exact though, without any difference whatsoever, even the appostrophe. I cannot see the attachment on your loop as well as I can in my pictures, but it looks to be soldered.

Did you find these pictures? Is that your button?

Thanks

 

[Felinepeachy]

LOL, to me the lettering looks the same in that they both look indented but I can't see worth beans so don't pay any attention to me. I found that picture of the button example on the internet, it's not mine.

http://www.relicman.com/backscovillm.htm

 

[West Coast Fever]

Okay,

so I got out the loop to take a closer look at my button. While is is similar to the one that was posted in response, there are a few distinct differences with the front.

If you look closely, you will see that the olive branches on mine actually depict olives on the branch, and the leaves are broader, and there are not as many leaves.

If you look even closer, you will see the nice arrangement of arrows in the right claw on yours, they are symmetrical and radiate out in nice orderly groups. Mine does not have the same arrangement.

I think that the relief of my button is deeper than the one you show. Your button is more distinct, and has some finer detail, where as mine does, but is harder to distinguish as a result of the relief being so high.

Looking at the button you show, it seems as though it were flat, and or concave, where as mine is distinctly convex.

So, while we may be able to put the issue of the Coat of Arms closer to rest, in terms of its period use, i still do not have a definite answer.

I think that the button shown for comparison, may have been a fatigues, or non dress button, where I am certain that the one I have was gilded in gold, though very little of it remains I can still see it. That would give rise to the notion that it was for a dress uniform, rather than a field uniform. But, then again, in days of old, it seems that we used to dress up for the affair of war, at least for the first dance.

Are we closer?

 

[West Coast Fever]

Yeah, after another look with my glasses on, it does seem as thoug the button you show a picture of has the same lettering, though the SCOVILL still looks like raised letters, it is probably the lighting and the dirt. I take that part back, and am a little more excited. I think I need to "dig up" some new glasses.

pardon the pun

 

[Felinepeachy]

Holy Cow!! Your button does have actual olives!! I can see the differences that you're pointing out. This is driving me nuts! We're going to have to keep researching. Surely this can't be the only one of it's kind, can it? Also, I think your birds neck is different than the comparison, don't you?

 

[West Coast Fever]

Actually, the necks are very similar, though I can see why you might think they are not. What is different is that the banner goes into and out of my eagles mouth, and the part that comes out closest to the neck looks as though it is part of the neck in the photo. Under a loop it can be seen clearly. I also wanted to point out that the clarity of the parts in the button ou show seem to be finer, not in terms of better as that is subjective, but rather, thinner, a bit more clarity. I truly think that it is becuase of the slight differences in the overall geometry. But, otherwise, they have the similar symbols.

Thanks by the way for getting them on the same thread post, I am sure that will help others as well. I have an advantage for mine, I use a loop, and can see just about every deatail that I might need. turns out that I am losing my reading eyes anyway, so i dang near need a loop to look at anything within arms reach, for reading that is.

 

[duggap]

Folks, you can debate it all day long but I can guarantee you that there was no such button worn by a civil war soldier.

 

[West Coast Fever]

Duggap,

It is not the purpose to be able to say that it was. I only want to get a definite idea of the time frame in which it could have been manufactured and or used. It does not matter so much to me whether it was Civil War or Later, What does matter is that I would like to place it in time. Sure it would be nice to say it is a war relic, but I think that the fact that it is so well preserved and is likely 100 years old, and came out of the dirt is sufficient enough to make me pretty happy to have found it.

I just like to be thorough in my research, and this is a research quest, not a glory quest. Does that make sense.

The other thing I would like to add is that you should never say never, unless you are the one that owned it, or have some absolute proof that you can share with the rest of us uneducated guessers. You may very well be right, and i would like to invite you to share your reasons for making that statement. I am certain of nothing at this point, because there are a great many contradictions in the available information, but no absolute and definitive facts that would support placeing an era on this button. Again, I invite you to share your knowlege for us to evaluate.

Thanks in advance

 

[Felinepeachy]

Yes, regardless of it's age, it's a beautiful button and obviously quite unique.