??? Bullet - ID the approx age of bullet ???

[Rogue Relic Hunter]

I dug this bullet a few weeks ago. Clad Rosy dime for sizing perspective.

I think it is a 9mm, but that is not my concern. I am wondering about its AGE.

See bottom pic, the bullet seems hollow and filled with a white patina (i guess).

I do not know much about bullets. I am assuming it is fairly old. but, i am not sure. how old? approx age? hoping the hollow and white patina tells you something about age!

any help would be appreciated.


Click pics for larger images with more detail.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Cry Of The Eagle: History And Legends Of The Cherokee Indians And Their Buried Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[NOLA_Ken]

looks to be copper jacketed, so not very old. Copper jacketed bullets were invented in 1882, and 9mm parabellum was introduced in 1902, so somewhere between then and now, and I would guess more toward now....9mm is arguably the most common pistol bullet out there, and it definitely is the most common that I find.

 

[Rogue Relic Hunter]

thanks for the information. i am curious, why is the bullet hollow from the bottom and filled with the white powder? the patina on the bullet itself is pretty thick. i am assuming that takes awhile to develop like that. also, was down 8 inches. still think a recent bullet?

looks to be copper jacketed, so not very old. Copper jacketed bullets were invented in 1882, and 9mm parabellum was introduced in 1902, so somewhere between then and now, and I would guess more toward now....9mm is arguably the most common pistol bullet out there, and it definitely is the most common that I find.

 

[Tony in SC]

The white in the bottom is probably oxidized lead.

 

[Rogue Relic Hunter]

The white in the bottom is probably oxidized lead.

seems like a lot of it. any idea how long that takes to form?

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Lead oxidizes differently in different areas due to soil conditions so it's hard to say. With bullets, depth isn't really a useful way to estimate age either. A bullet shot into the air will punch into the ground when it comes back down, and someone could have shot it straight into the dirt. I've found modern bullets a foot deep in places that had silver coins at 6 inches, it just depends on how they hit the ground.

I lean toward more "modern" because 9mm really didn't take off in the US until the 1970s/80's, until then the .45 acp pretty much was the dominant hand gun caliber here, there were plenty of 9mm's here of course, but most people were convinced that their 45's and 38's were better. If I'm remembering right it wasn't really until the military traded in their 45 cal 1911's for 9mm Barettas that it really gained mainstream acceptance here. If I'm off here hopefully someone will chime in....

 

[Rogue Relic Hunter]

Lead oxidizes differently in different areas due to soil conditions so it's hard to say. With bullets, depth isn't really a useful way to estimate age either. A bullet shot into the air will punch into the ground when it comes back down, and someone could have shot it straight into the dirt. I've found modern bullets a foot deep in places that had silver coins at 6 inches, it just depends on how they hit the ground.

I lean toward more "modern" because 9mm really didn't take off in the US until the 1970s/80's, until then the .45 acp pretty much was the dominant hand gun caliber here, there were plenty of 9mm's here of course, but most people were convinced that their 45's and 38's were better. If I'm remembering right it wasn't really until the military traded in their 45 cal 1911's for 9mm Barettas that it really gained mainstream acceptance here. If I'm off here hopefully someone will chime in....

agreed on depth of a bullet is not necessarily a valid indicator of its age. however, patina is. judging from the level of patina on this bullet, i am thinking 70's or so anyway. this backed by the level of carbon on the bottom of the bullet. one thing is certain, it def is not civil war.

 

[capsmith]

Can you give us a measurement with rule or anything in inches.

 

[Rogue Relic Hunter]

The white in the bottom is probably oxidized lead.

i could measure it, but we already figured it to be a 9mm bullet. i am more interested in age, but we really dont have a way to determine that. i base my opinion on the level of patina. if you need me to i can measure it.

 

[capsmith]

i could measure it, but we already figured it to be a 9mm bullet. i am more interested in age, but we really dont have a way to determine that. i base my opinion on the level of patina. if you need me to i can measure it.

How did you come to the conclusion it is a 9mm without a measurement and weight . There are a lot of auto that looks like that such a m1 carbine 30 cal. ,380,40 and 45. Without proper ID it is hard to get close to the age. The best I can do on age as of now would be early 1900s to present.

 

[Rogue Relic Hunter]

How did you come to the conclusion it is a 9mm without a measurement and weight . There are a lot of auto that looks like that such a m1 carbine 30 cal. ,380,40 and 45. Without proper ID it is hard to get close to the age. The best I can do on age as of now would be early 1900s to present.

I have a 9mm pistol and a friend and I compared the bullet size, weight etc. Seemed to be same size and weight as my 9mm bullet, ergo... yes, nothing scientific, just "eyeballing" the characteristics from a 9mm bullet I had with the one dug. If this 'non-scientific' visual comparison procedure resulted in an erroneous conclusion, I am in error. it was, however, the best we had at the moment...

this is why I made the post. i am not a munitions expert. I dig the stuff and attempt to figure out what things "are" later, thus this post...

Your "age" hypothesis, "early 1900s to present", seems conservative. I do not assume that a bullet containing the level of patina this bullet has could be a "present" bullet (though the term 'present' is, at best, a vague quantifier--do you mean last 5 years, 10, 20, what?). regardless of soil conditions, i dont think this level of patina could occur in that short a period of time ("present"). The only way the "present" quantifier makes sense is IF you extend the operational definition of that term beyond sensible limits, IMOP.

Hope this helps....

 

[Tedyoh]

Just out of curiosity Rogue........billions and billions of 9's have been made and fired in the US, why do you really care how old it is?

Also like to add that, especially target rounds for pistols, ammo makers don't use "pure" lead anymore in their production, they use more of alloy like antimony which will oxidize (patina) a lot faster than a 3 ring CW round.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

That level of oxidation, to me, looks like there is a high percentage of zinc in the lead. pure lead develops a nice smooth white patina and this one looks pretty crusty, similar to a zinc penny.....

Modern ammo will almost always be an alloy of lead with tin or antimony or both, and pretty much all recycled lead from wheel weights or batteries is going to have zinc in it. Quality ammo will have a low zinc content maybe 1%, something about the way zinc binds in the alloy gives you variations in hardness than can affect the ballistic properties of the bullet..... but low grade ammo, like the cheap Chinese or Russian ammo, who knows? If it's one of those, then odds are it's post 1990....

So, in my opinion, for what it's worth, based on the zinc like appearance of the oxidation, and the fact that 9mm wasn't really popular before the 1980's and therefore less common, I'd date the bullet after 1990, and depending on the soil conditions, if they are acidic, maybe as recently as a couple years ago. Dating bullets precisely, outside of a known battle, gunfight, or an oddball caliber is pretty much impossible.

 

[capsmith]

That level of oxidation, to me, looks like there is a high percentage of zinc in the lead. pure lead develops a nice smooth white patina and this one looks pretty crusty, similar to a zinc penny.....

Modern ammo will almost always be an alloy of lead with tin or antimony or both, and pretty much all recycled lead from wheel weights or batteries is going to have zinc in it. Quality ammo will have a low zinc content maybe 1%, something about the way zinc binds in the alloy gives you variations in hardness than can affect the ballistic properties of the bullet..... but low grade ammo, like the cheap Chinese or Russian ammo, who knows? If it's one of those, then odds are it's post 1990....

So, in my opinion, for what it's worth, based on the zinc like appearance of the oxidation, and the fact that 9mm wasn't really popular before the 1980's and therefore less common, I'd date the bullet after 1990, and depending on the soil conditions, if they are acidic, maybe as recently as a couple years ago. Dating bullets precisely, outside of a known battle, gunfight, or an oddball caliber is pretty much impossible.

You have nailed it. One other thing that I can say . Jacketed bullets with the lead exposed on the back , next to the powder ,oxidation seem to occurs quicker.

 

[Rogue Relic Hunter]

Just out of curiosity Rogue........billions and billions of 9's have been made and fired in the US, why do you really care how old it is?

Also like to add that, especially target rounds for pistols, ammo makers don't use "pure" lead anymore in their production, they use more of alloy like antimony which will oxidize (patina) a lot faster than a 3 ring CW round.

like anything i dig, one of the 1st things i wonder about is age. not the exact age of the bullet, just a general time-frame. 90's to present, early 1900's, what? not a major issue, just a curiosity I have with any of my finds, bullet, relic or otherwise.

 

[capsmith]

Is it a steel jacket or copper jacket. Still don't know if it a 9mm or not with out measurements.

 

[Rogue Relic Hunter]

Is it a steel jacket or copper jacket. Still don't know if it a 9mm or not with out measurements.

how do you tell? it is not magnetic.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

like anything i dig, one of the 1st things i wonder about is age. not the exact age of the bullet, just a general time-frame. 90's to present, early 1900's, what? not a major issue, just a curiosity I have with any of my finds, bullet, relic or otherwise.

Nothing wrong with that, and I feel pretty much the same. Learning how to date different things will always help when you're trying to date a site.

 

[Rogue Relic Hunter]

Nothing wrong with that, and I feel pretty much the same. Learning how to date different things will always help when you're trying to date a site.

agreed. it is not just about detecting, digging and collecting relics. it is also placing relics and artifacts in history and putting information together about an area. this hobby can be as simple as digging coins on a beach OR researching maps and documents to find civil war camps, detecting and digging those sites and collecting the artifacts. it is as deep as you want to take it!

thanks for commenting and adding your input. appreciated!!!!!

 

[nsdq]

I have year old bullets fired look just like that