Bronze / Brass knife and sheath - where and when? Whats the green stuff?

[batcap]

Bronze / Brass knife and sheath - where and when? What's the green stuff?

Everybody else at the auction house turned up their nose at this. The estate had so many other nice antiques that I thought this one may have gone unrecognized.

The pictures pretty much say it all. The blade looks very brass-like to me. The blade is sharp, but not real sharp. It seems as if it would be better at poking and hacking than sawing and slicing. Short sword or machette? I saw that green stuff once on some jewelry marked as 14K. I sent it to ARA, it's not gold.

 

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[duggap]

Re: Bronze / Brass knife and sheith - where and when? What's the green stuff?

I can't help on identifying the knife but the green stuff is oxidation. I have some modern Hen and Rooster knives that already have that oxidation forming.

 

[taz42o]

Re: Bronze / Brass knife and sheith - where and when? What's the green stuff?

Looks like bronze to me and its a dagger. The wrap on handle and stitching on sheath look like animal sinew but may be artificial sinew.

 

[Tony in SC]

Re: Bronze / Brass knife and sheith - where and when? What's the green stuff?

The green stuff is the copper in the metal oxidizing. Tony

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Re: Bronze / Brass knife and sheith - where and when? What's the green stuff?

I'm pretty sure your dagger is African. It resembles what's called a "Taureg" Dagger. No idea on an age, but looking at the handle and the overall condition I'd guess not extremely old.

 

[ivan salis]

Re: Bronze / Brass knife and sheith - where and when? What's the green stuff?

the green is a form of bronze / copper "rust" -- when copper or bronze "breaks down" or rust its green --unlike steel or iron rust --look up "bronze disease" it is sadly quite common on bronze statues.

 

[kuger]

Re: Bronze / Brass knife and sheith - where and when? What's the green stuff?

Looks like bronze to me and its a dagger. The wrap on handle and stitching on sheath look like animal sinew but may be artificial sinew.

Yes,definetly artificial sinew,so that may assist in "ageing",it?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Bronze / Brass knife and sheith - where and when? What's the green stuff?

I can't help on identifying the knife but the green stuff is oxidation. I have some modern Hen and Rooster knives that already have that oxidation forming.

Yes its the early stages of patina. First glance it looks like something from India and thats why it was overlooked. I have a modern penknife that has the same early green patina.

The rings marked 14K are plated brass .

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Re: Bronze / Brass knife and sheith - where and when? What's the green stuff?

The "official" name for the green stuff is verdigris. It is a reaction from the acids in leather with the copper in the bronze. You see it often on the brass/bronze trim pieces of knives left in sheaths and cartridges left in leather belt loops. It is copper acetate.

 

[batcap]

Re: Bronze / Brass knife and sheith - where and when? What's the green stuff?

Well once I got pointed toward "dagger" I decided to dig in and start researching myself . . .

Dagger: check
Bronze: check
Verdigris: check
Tuareg: not too sure. Tuareg made some good looking knives. Every example I've seen (today) is too ornate, rarely has the central rib, often has prominent quillions and an elaborate pommel. (I learned most of those words today).

I don't know if we could ever nail down the locality. Middle East is about as close as I can get. I know that my knife is not as old as the links below, but could it be a reproduction or of similar heritage maybe?

Egyptian: Has rib, no quillion, no pommel. Similar handle profile.
http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=5385320

Persia, Luristan, Iran.
http://www.ancientresource.com/lots/persian/ancient-persian-weapons.html
Check the shapes of the handles, and see the holes for pins in the spear about 2/3 down the page.

Baktrian-Greek
Northwest Pakistan (third example)
http://www.coinart.net/spears3.htm
Has rib and pins, blade doesn't swell in the middle-just comes to a point. no hint of a quillion or pommel.

I've seen some very similar looking from the Ukraine too, but they weren't bronze.

Regarding the age of this piece. . . It is in great shape. But then again so are the 1928 Audel's Engineers Guide set I got at the same auction. They're 83 years old and look like they could have come off the presses in 2008, except we don't make books that well any more. This guy (of the estate sale) had money and could collect the best. This isn't an ancient knife but could easily be 100 years old, in my opinion. However not many people were working in bronze that recently, were they? I'm still confused.

However, you all took me from floundering to having some idea of what I scavenged. I'll put up a green check tomorrow if there's nothing more to add.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Bronze / Brass knife and sheith - where and when? What's the green stuff?

Regarding the age of this piece. . . It is in great shape. But then again so are the 1928 Audel's Engineers Guide set I got at the same auction. They're 83 years old and look like they could have come off the presses in 2008, except we don't make books that well any more. This guy (of the estate sale) had money and could collect the best. This isn't an ancient knife but could easily be 100 years old, in my opinion. However not many people were working in bronze that recently, were they? I'm still confused.

However, you all took me from floundering to having some idea of what I scavenged. I'll put up a green check tomorrow if there's nothing more to add.

I really dont know for sure to tell you but I think a bronze knife would have no purpose other than a wall hanger. The bronze age of knives was long ago.

My first opinion would be that its a modern tourist item. Nothing on your knife looks old to me. Not the bronze, not the wood, not the sinew and not the leather. I have belts that look older.

 

[batcap]

Re: Bronze / Brass knife and sheith - where and when? What's the green stuff?

Regarding the age of this piece. . . It is in great shape. But then again so are the 1928 Audel's Engineers Guide set I got at the same auction. They're 83 years old and look like they could have come off the presses in 2008, except we don't make books that well any more. This guy (of the estate sale) had money and could collect the best. This isn't an ancient knife but could easily be 100 years old, in my opinion. However not many people were working in bronze that recently, were they? I'm still confused.

However, you all took me from floundering to having some idea of what I scavenged. I'll put up a green check tomorrow if there's nothing more to add.

I really dont know for sure to tell you but I think a bronze knife would have no purpose other than a wall hanger. The bronze age of knives was long ago.

My first opinion would be that its a modern tourist item. Nothing on your knife looks old to me. Not the bronze, not the wood, not the sinew and not the leather. I have belts that look older.

I've come to more or less the same conclusion. The bronze age ended far too long ago for my knife to be of anywhere near that age and there's been little reason to make a bronze blade since. Wall hanger, ok. It wasn't made to be used and I don't see signs that it ever was.

But "tourist item" says to me that it is quickly or poorly made. Also one would expect to be able to find another example of a tourist trade item somewhere on the net. Without actually putting it to the test, I feel this knife is perfectly useable. The handle is tight and so is the sinew. The blade is sharp. The sheath is nicely formed, fits perfectly and appears much more durable than my last three $10 belts.
My obvious bias and vested interest ($5 + 21% tax and buyer's premium)makes me lean toward calling it an "authentic reproduction".

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Bronze / Brass knife and sheith - where and when? What's the green stuff?

But "tourist item" says to me that it is quickly or poorly made. Also one would expect to be able to find another example of a tourist trade item somewhere on the net. Without actually putting it to the test, I feel this knife is perfectly useable. The handle is tight and so is the sinew. The blade is sharp. The sheath is nicely formed, fits perfectly and appears much more durable than my last three $10 belts.
My obvious bias and vested interest ($5 + 21% tax and buyer's premium)makes me lean toward calling it an "authentic reproduction".

I guess you could call it a reproduction. I have a survival knife made in India with a brass handle. Its made to be pretty but its actually very strong and usable. I use it to hack on trees and branches. I think its a decent strong knife but because its made in India, it has little monetary value and no value as a collectible. Its worth the price you paid. :

Your thread reminds me of this one. http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,423029.0.html

It doesnt always matter what its worth.. If you like the knife and it has special value to you hanging on the wall, thats great. And if you find a use for a brass knife, thats great too.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Bronze / Brass knife and sheith - where and when? What's the green stuff?

Try searching import stores. They are made with cheap labor. Did you try searching Pier 1 Imports?

Throw it up on your roof and let the sun beat down on it. After a few years, it may look more authentic. Im not sure what you are expecting or looking for.

 

[batcap]

Re: Bronze / Brass knife and sheith - where and when? What's the green stuff?

I green checked this a week ago. I had hoped someone could come up with an era and locale when a dagger such as would have been typically used, for the purpose of an eBay description.

Regarding being made to be pretty, I'd say this is quite the opposite. It has no decorative pommel, no carving on the handle, no engraving on the blade, no embossing in the leather, no quillions whatsoever, and no stamp of origin. All of that would be the easy part after making the knife, right? The rib in the blade and the sinew wrap can be viewed as purely utilitarian. If using this meant sneaking up and stabbing someone, then leaving this behind wouldn't be too regrettable. But doesn't that go directly against being just a wall hanger?

 

[batcap]

Re: Bronze / Brass knife and sheath - where and when? What's the green stuff?

Actually, this has helped immensely! I can see the eBay title now . . . Bronze dagger - Look Closely at Everything NOT Included! Big Pics Inside!!!

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Bronze / Brass knife and sheath - where and when? What's the green stuff?

I green checked this a week ago. I had hoped someone could come up with an era and locale when a dagger such as would have been typically used, for the purpose of an eBay description.

Regarding being made to be pretty, I'd say this is quite the opposite. It has no decorative pommel, no carving on the handle, no engraving on the blade, no embossing in the leather, no quillions whatsoever, and no stamp of origin. All of that would be the easy part after making the knife, right? The rib in the blade and the sinew wrap can be viewed as purely utilitarian. If using this meant sneaking up and stabbing someone, then leaving this behind wouldn't be too regrettable. But doesn't that go directly against being just a wall hanger?

I was just saying that the Rambo knife I have is made to be pretty but its actually functional. I use it to hack on trees.

I dont know what your knife is supposed to represent or be a reproduction of sorry so take your best guess on eBay unless someone else knows. A bronze knife? It may come in handy as a shank in prison but other than that, I cant think of any modern use other than a wall hanger or a letter opener.. Its something made to look antique but its certainly not an antique. Hey some people collect this kinda stuff. For what purpose, I have no idea sorry.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Bronze / Brass knife and sheath - where and when? What's the green stuff?

The only other possibility is that it was made by some modern African tribe. All I really know is that its not an antique.

 

[ipsilateral]

Re: Bronze / Brass knife and sheath - where and when? What's the green stuff?

Hi I just spotted this, but it is a pretty common form in West African "utility" knives. I am attaching one here that has its origins in Togo. It's a bit ornate, but you'll see that it's pretty similar. If from Togo, some of the tribes but sandpaper inside the sheath so the knife sharpens as its used.

 

[JennyNH]

Hi!

Pardon the passerby piping in - I recognize this piece. It (or one almost exactly like it) was sold as a replica "Bronze Age Egyptian Dagger" by Atlanta Cutlery / Museum Replicas sometime around the mid-late 1990's if I recall correctly.

I'm afraid I don't have more details - this thread just popped up on an image search while researching something else.
(though if I ever get a metal detector to tromp our old New England farm I might be back. )

edit - if you're interested, I suggest posting the picture to myarmoury.com or another historical arms forum. I suspect at least one of the members must have one, or a catalog in which it appeared.