Site dated back into the 18th century. This thing is brass, 4 inches long, 1-1/2 inches wide, hollow inside. Any ideas or guess would be greatly appreciated.
Brass??
- Thread starter Charlene
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TheCannonballGuy
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Well, we now know that this mystery-relic comes in at least two significantly-different sizes.
I think that fact is important when we try to figure out what it actually is.
I noticed that the reported size of Charlene's (at 4" long, 1-&-1/2" wide) is much larger than the one in Rasrandy's photo, which is only as wide as his thumb. So I measured one I have, and it is (precisely) 3-&-7/8" long, 7/8" wide. It fits exactly on a 3/4"-diameter wooden pole. That means the smaller version of the relic is very unlikely to be for a military flagpole - even a cavalry guidon - because a 3/4" round wood shaft is very easily broken. Heck, even a typical modern household wooden broomhandle is 1" to 1-&-1/8" in diameter. So I have serious doubt about this relic being from a MILITARY-USAGE flagpole. (Combat-conditions are rough on equipment, y'know.)
Charlene, what is the diameter of the hole (that a shaft would fit into) on your relic?
But we do know for certain that whatever the relic might be, it DOES go onto a round wooden shaft of some sort. Besides them all having a small hole (near the open end) for a mounting-screw or nail, Rasrandy's still has some wood inside it.
I think one other key ID-clue would be the "arched slot" on the end of the relic. I'm describing it as a slot because it's narrow in comparison to its length. On my relic that slot is only 3/8" long - and a bit less than 1/8" wide. So it seems to me that the slot is for a thin strap (or cord) - to hang the item from a hook or nail on a wall.
I happened to notice that my wife's umbrella has a similar thing on the end of its shaft - with a thin strap going through it. for easy carrying - or hanging.
Or the relic might be from broom-handles (of various sizes) - or some similar wooden-shaft household tool that you might want to hang from a wall. (A broom is best stored with its bristles off the floor, lest its own weight cause the bristles to mushroom outward.)
I think another relevant ID-clue (for deducing the relic's time-period) is the fact that it is a "one-piece" item made from solid-cast brass ...rather than being fabricated from sheet-brass (like, say, a bayonet scabbard-tip is). This makes me think the relic is more likely to have been made during the Colonial-to-early-1800s era, instead of the 1850s-1860s.
I hope one or two of my "logical deductions" about the relic will be helpful as we What_Is_It Forum denizens try to figure out what it is. ;-)
Regards,
TheCannonballGuy
I think that fact is important when we try to figure out what it actually is.
I noticed that the reported size of Charlene's (at 4" long, 1-&-1/2" wide) is much larger than the one in Rasrandy's photo, which is only as wide as his thumb. So I measured one I have, and it is (precisely) 3-&-7/8" long, 7/8" wide. It fits exactly on a 3/4"-diameter wooden pole. That means the smaller version of the relic is very unlikely to be for a military flagpole - even a cavalry guidon - because a 3/4" round wood shaft is very easily broken. Heck, even a typical modern household wooden broomhandle is 1" to 1-&-1/8" in diameter. So I have serious doubt about this relic being from a MILITARY-USAGE flagpole. (Combat-conditions are rough on equipment, y'know.)
Charlene, what is the diameter of the hole (that a shaft would fit into) on your relic?
But we do know for certain that whatever the relic might be, it DOES go onto a round wooden shaft of some sort. Besides them all having a small hole (near the open end) for a mounting-screw or nail, Rasrandy's still has some wood inside it.
I think one other key ID-clue would be the "arched slot" on the end of the relic. I'm describing it as a slot because it's narrow in comparison to its length. On my relic that slot is only 3/8" long - and a bit less than 1/8" wide. So it seems to me that the slot is for a thin strap (or cord) - to hang the item from a hook or nail on a wall.
I happened to notice that my wife's umbrella has a similar thing on the end of its shaft - with a thin strap going through it. for easy carrying - or hanging.
Or the relic might be from broom-handles (of various sizes) - or some similar wooden-shaft household tool that you might want to hang from a wall. (A broom is best stored with its bristles off the floor, lest its own weight cause the bristles to mushroom outward.)
I think another relevant ID-clue (for deducing the relic's time-period) is the fact that it is a "one-piece" item made from solid-cast brass ...rather than being fabricated from sheet-brass (like, say, a bayonet scabbard-tip is). This makes me think the relic is more likely to have been made during the Colonial-to-early-1800s era, instead of the 1850s-1860s.
I hope one or two of my "logical deductions" about the relic will be helpful as we What_Is_It Forum denizens try to figure out what it is. ;-)
Regards,
TheCannonballGuy
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TheCannonballGuy
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At the time I was typing my post, PBK's hadn't appeared. Now that it has, I gotta say it pretty much settles the mystery. Thanks, PBK!
A very old dictionary I found in my online searching says a whiffletree is a pivoted horizontal heavy crossbar by which a horse pulls a wagon. I'll attach a photo of one (which is part of an artist's exhibit titled "Blue Fairy").
I still can't figure out how that narrow little slot (3/8" long by less than 1/8" wide) on my size version of the relic is a useful part of a whiffletree (cap).
Oh well... whatever logic might indicate about the relic, PBK's sears-catalog illustration shows the relic's form exactly, so that's that ...case closed. Ya can learn something new every day on the What_Is_It? forum. : ) My thanks to each of you who contributed to this topic.
Regards,
TheCannonballGuy
A very old dictionary I found in my online searching says a whiffletree is a pivoted horizontal heavy crossbar by which a horse pulls a wagon. I'll attach a photo of one (which is part of an artist's exhibit titled "Blue Fairy").
I still can't figure out how that narrow little slot (3/8" long by less than 1/8" wide) on my size version of the relic is a useful part of a whiffletree (cap).
Oh well... whatever logic might indicate about the relic, PBK's sears-catalog illustration shows the relic's form exactly, so that's that ...case closed. Ya can learn something new every day on the What_Is_It? forum. : ) My thanks to each of you who contributed to this topic.
Regards,
TheCannonballGuy
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TheCannonballGuy
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Rsrandy, you're right... looks very similar ...but the items shown all seem to have a threaded top-end for the flagpole tip (spearpoint or whatever) to be mounted on.
To clarify what I mean... I checked the mmcwrt.missouri.org/default.htm site previously - and I could see no way for the devices shown to attach onto the "arched slot" that's on top of our brass mystery-relics ...so I discarded the "spontoons & finials" items as being the answer.)
Regards,
TheCannonballGuy
To clarify what I mean... I checked the mmcwrt.missouri.org/default.htm site previously - and I could see no way for the devices shown to attach onto the "arched slot" that's on top of our brass mystery-relics ...so I discarded the "spontoons & finials" items as being the answer.)
Regards,
TheCannonballGuy
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OP
OP
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- #29
Humm, very interesting, one is being sold for 225.00 on the civilwaroutpost site as a flag tip. I measured mine, it is exactly 4 -1/4" in length. Bottom Outside dia. of 1- 1/8, inside dia. 1". Top hole is square, 5/16"X1/8"
I haven't disgarded any suggestions yet, since I'm looking at one for sale as a flag pole tip, and another in Sears and Roebuck.
I did read where flank markers and general guide markers were different, being one was on a shorter smaller post trimmed to fit inside of a musket barrel. Not all had the fancy finial's on top.
Is it a possiblilty that they used whiffletree tip, on the top of flank/guide poles? My family improvised by using the old Sears and Roebuck for toilet paper in the outhouse. For all we know, they could have used whiffletrees on the top of flank markers.
I agree with Randy, wish I could see a picture of where that little whiffletree tip was used on the whiffletree.
I haven't disgarded any suggestions yet, since I'm looking at one for sale as a flag pole tip, and another in Sears and Roebuck.
I did read where flank markers and general guide markers were different, being one was on a shorter smaller post trimmed to fit inside of a musket barrel. Not all had the fancy finial's on top.
Is it a possiblilty that they used whiffletree tip, on the top of flank/guide poles? My family improvised by using the old Sears and Roebuck for toilet paper in the outhouse. For all we know, they could have used whiffletrees on the top of flank markers.
I agree with Randy, wish I could see a picture of where that little whiffletree tip was used on the whiffletree.
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TheCannonballGuy
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Charlene (and Jsrandy), I'm with you on wanting to see one of those whiffletree-tip "in use." In trying to find "second-source" confirmation of PBK's posted catalog design, I did a websearch for the keyword "whiffletree." I read through each of 25 pages (not just screens) of Results, checking manymany sites, before tiring enough to relinquish the search.
Apart from results like Whiffltree Street and Whiffletree Resort, that search did produce some sites of reproduction antique horse-drawn Carriage makers. Some had photos of the carriages, but the whiffletree bar was metal, with no tip(s) that looked at all like ours.
I must confess I haven't figured out how to use Google for such an item ...so I was using my Internet Explorer browser's Search feature. Perhaps some Google-pro here can find the image we're hoping to see.
Regards,
TheCannonballGuy
Apart from results like Whiffltree Street and Whiffletree Resort, that search did produce some sites of reproduction antique horse-drawn Carriage makers. Some had photos of the carriages, but the whiffletree bar was metal, with no tip(s) that looked at all like ours.
I must confess I haven't figured out how to use Google for such an item ...so I was using my Internet Explorer browser's Search feature. Perhaps some Google-pro here can find the image we're hoping to see.
Regards,
TheCannonballGuy
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OP
OP
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- #31
I've been blinded, my eyeballs are burning, naked men hitched to some perverts wagon!!
Oh my lord
Jesus, be VERY careful searching this whiffletree thingie. I hit a carriage site and there was 2 naked men harnessed like horses hooked up to some man sitting on a sulky.
Its a cool looking brass thingie, found on an old site. I'm done.
My mamma told me I was hard headed and wouldn't listen, but I just had to keep searching now I'm gonna have nightmares.
Oh my lord
Jesus, be VERY careful searching this whiffletree thingie. I hit a carriage site and there was 2 naked men harnessed like horses hooked up to some man sitting on a sulky. Its a cool looking brass thingie, found on an old site. I'm done.
My mamma told me I was hard headed and wouldn't listen, but I just had to keep searching now I'm gonna have nightmares.
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PBK
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CannonballGuy, you'll find a modern whiffletree tip in the Morgan Carriage Works online catalog. (They spell it "wiffel tree.") Check out the first pic on the right in the fourth row:
http://www.morgancarriage.com/catalog/shaft.htm
Also, there's one at the end of the following "Ask Mark Parker" column:
http://www.treasurenet.com/westeast/96-12/askmarkparker.html
http://www.morgancarriage.com/catalog/shaft.htm
Also, there's one at the end of the following "Ask Mark Parker" column:
http://www.treasurenet.com/westeast/96-12/askmarkparker.html
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gord
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PBK said:
From the looks of that, we've been coming from the wrong direction; the traces don't use the slot at all, they're fastened around the groove below it somehow. Must be for awfully light carriages, if the 2 ends are shaved down to 1" dia. to take the tips (so that would mean a single-tree?).
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OP
OP
- Thread starter
- #38
I wrote to a carriage company, sent them the pic, they were nice enough to reply and comfirm it was a whiffletree end. She told me she would take a pic tomorrow of their wagonette. She explained that a leather lace is inserted through the hole and then the traces go through the lace to keep them from falling down. If they are put on properly one small nail holds them on.
I also wrote the Civilwar site and asked how they determined their's was from a flag pole and not a whiffletree, but as of now I have not gotten a response back.
PS my eyeballs are still healing from this research
I also wrote the Civilwar site and asked how they determined their's was from a flag pole and not a whiffletree, but as of now I have not gotten a response back.
PS my eyeballs are still healing from this research
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OP
OP
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- #40
Success, the two carriage places wrote back both confiming it as a whiffletree end. One even sent a picture so we can see exactly how its used.
I think I did bring into question the relic listed on that civil war site for sale at 225.00. They replied they had gotten it from a relic hunter but after my email they had some concerns and ask me to forward the information from the carriage shops.
It actually makes me proud that I found more knowledge here than on a site that sold civil war relics... PBK, Randy and Akiwi your hit the nail on the head the first time. Hope I didn't forget anyone, as I can only see a few of the replies as I type this. Your knowledge kicks butt. Thanks everyone for helping.
And now the infamous whiffletree, whippletree, swingletree, doubletree end photo.
I think I did bring into question the relic listed on that civil war site for sale at 225.00. They replied they had gotten it from a relic hunter but after my email they had some concerns and ask me to forward the information from the carriage shops.
It actually makes me proud that I found more knowledge here than on a site that sold civil war relics... PBK, Randy and Akiwi your hit the nail on the head the first time. Hope I didn't forget anyone, as I can only see a few of the replies as I type this. Your knowledge kicks butt. Thanks everyone for helping.
And now the infamous whiffletree, whippletree, swingletree, doubletree end photo.
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