Brass Cross

[pcolaboy]

Hunted a friend's dirt pile today and found a beautiful copper/brass cross. I'm not Catholic but it looks like a Rosary chain cross. Can anyone take a crack at identification and age? This same yard has yielded lots of British and Spanish colonial artifacts in addition to American.


Before soap and water


After soap and water


Negative Image


Before soap and water


After soap and water


Negative Image

Pcolaboy

 

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[Silver Searcher]

Not much into the religious thing myself, but it's still a neat find. What happen to the one side of it? looks like it got caught on a grinder?

The exposed metal on the front was most likely caused by the shovel . I helped my buddy dig to repair his sprinkler system and some of the soil was pretty compacted.

Pcola

I'm glad you said that PB.... I thought you had took a file to it it looks more like Bronze to me(copper Alloy) and a bit of age to it, nice find

 

[pcolaboy]

Don't donate to the museum... seriously, send them a good picture and some coordinates, and keep that thing. I went to UWF and USF for archaeology, and do you know what I learned for my $20 Grand+ ??... I learned that as interesting as studying the past is, it's only important to preserve it if we are actually going to learn from it, and then use said knowledge to improve the present... and we as a culture certainly do not... AND the way things are going in the present, you may need to trade it for food soon... when this version of Rome falls...
No really, keep it. You'll actually end up teaching more people on a deeper level if you are there to tell the tale, instead of it just sitting in a case or box.

That thing is awesome. "Ouch" on the shovel nick.

I agree with all of your points. The ironic thing is that UWF has persuaded the local governments that all metal detectorists are nothing more than modern day pirates stealing our history. I agree that it's looting on historic sites, but not in an area that has been repeatedly ripped up by bulldozers and mixed in with modern trash. I have friends that have been threatened with arrest by a UWF cronie while metal detecting at a public sidewalk repair site that had just been indiscriminantly plowed up by a back hoe. Do you think UWF ever sent a team to recover and preserve any of the relics there? Hell no. You know as well as I do, only a tiny fraction of the very interesting finds by UWF ever see the light of day again. I'll never give them the location to my friend's property especially considering the way Judy Bense has wrangled lawmakers over the years and has tried to intimidate a well-known metal detector dealer into turning over her finds from 30 years of metal detecting to the state.

Geeze, sorry to go on about it but I really get fired up about this issue.

 

[Chagy]

Check out the crucifixes found in this Jesuit mission.

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...es?q=spanish+bronze+crucifix&gbv=2&hl=en&sa=G

 

[pcolaboy]

Check out the crucifixes found in this Jesuit mission.

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...es?q=spanish+bronze+crucifix&gbv=2&hl=en&sa=G

WOW Chagy I think you may be on to something. From what I can see on the small picture, I would say that they are very similar. The only difference would be in the width and height of the cross itself. Thanks for finding that amigo!

Pcola

 

[allen]

very interesting find....

 

[PBK]

The design on the reverse of the crucifix is known as the Arma Christi, or the "Arms of Christ," i.e., the instruments used in his torture and crucifixion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arma_Christi

 

[Baggins]

Super cool find!
Baggins

 

[pcolaboy]

The design on the reverse of the crucifix is known as the Arma Christi, or the "Arms of Christ," i.e., the instruments used in his torture and crucifixion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arma_Christi

PBK you are most assuredly the man! Thanks for that information. I'm sure this will now making my search for information a whole lot easier.

Pcola

 

[Chagy]

PBK my dear friend, what would it be of “What is it” with out you...I take my hat off!!!

Pcola, buddy I did a search in Spanish its usually better when you are searching for Spanish colonial period since most of the original documents were written in Spanish “cricifijo armas de Cristo”

http://www.identificacion-numismati...tos-de-la-pasion-o-armas-de-cristo-t13849.htm

Also here you can read more of the history http://www.funjdiaz.net/folklore/07ficha.cfm?id=1641
It also represents the Passion of Christ, the Church started using the combination of these instruments and other things to represent the “Passion and Arms of Christi” in 1515 later in 1594 it bacame vey common and popular...........

 

[Chagy]

This one has the date in the center of the crown....Are these numbers I see in yours?
Congratulations my friend this a very, very nice find...

I say Banner!!!!!!

 

[pcolaboy]

Very awesome info Chagy!! I do not see any indication of a date inside or surrounding the crown of thorns on the rear.

I've attached some newer photos since beginning a very slow cleaning process using very diluted baking soda and my thumb. It's amazing how shiny this thing is.









I'm probably going to request that this thread get moved to the "What is it?" forum so I can track it better.

Thanks again everyone for the comments and information!!!

Pcola

 

[Chagy]

This is the Jesuit order symbol....Do you see something in this symbol that is also in your cross?

 

[ivan salis]

I am a catholic -- I would say it is a jesuit order missionary type cross and very very old --a real bit of history there me amigo -- most likely a missionary had it either for personal use or as a "gift" for indains that converted----- if donated its highly unlikely it will ever see the light of day again (it will be tagged and boxed and kept "put away" to teach future archies --- not put on display for the great unwashed masses to see) -- and you can count on "questions" to be asked of when and where you got it as well most likely sooner or later -- I say its best to keep it and enjoy your bit of treasure, showing it to freinds and family .

 

[Chagy]

Is it the same symbol?

 

[ivan salis]

looks like it to me --chagy is dead on in my veiw -- plus --- historically speaking * jesuits were the catholic order well known for sending missionaries to the america's iin the early days.

 

[Chagy]

Ivan, not only the Jesuits.... see the Jesuits established some missions in the Pensacola area in the early 1500s and they were abandon in the late 1500s later on some of them were re-established by the Franciscans in the late 1600s....

 

[pcolaboy]

Yes, that is the same symbol on the bottom. I took out the magnifying glass to make sure.

This is really starting to get even more interesting to me. The first known colonization attempt was in 1559 but it is widely known that the remnants of the ill-fate Narvaez expedition came through here in 1528, and Maldonado spent the better part of a year in the Pensacola Bay area in 1540 attempting to resupply Desoto's expedition.

Thanks,

Pcola

 

[ivan salis]

yes but as you noted chagy thats the jesuit order marking on it. * due to that fact of the jesuit marking and the general overall styling of it and the history of missions in the area (jesuit in the 1500's) where it was found at combined together --- I'm leaning toward the the earlier "jesuit" missions( early to late 1500's) rather than the later franciscan ones of the late 1600's. (franciscans would not be carrying jesuit "marked" crosses --since these differant orders often "competed" against one another for converts and wealth))

like I said before ---a very , very old ( at least 450 years if its from the 1559 settlement attempt --maybe even older) jesuit missionary cross --- a real bit of history there. --- one very sweet find in my book.

 

[Smithbrown]

I think those are just the symbol of the nails, common to both the armi Christi and the Jesuits. I would have expected more explicit Jesuit imagery if it belonged to a missionary.

Smithbrown