Best metal detector for masking and silent masking

[darktower007]

Now here's a scratchy subject.. (I'm here all night!)
Thinking VLF here in a park iron and trash density medium to high.
Hundreds of detectors many frequencies out there, but can any of them punch through the layer of crap masking our deep goodies?

My thought is no. They all work the same some just a little better than others.

Nasa Tom has a really good write up on this and the results were scary. I.e a dang staple completely masking out a coin!


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[darktower007]

I did a video exploring this very thing, mainly iron mask feature, but it's the same with about any alloy. I did this with the Excal and a borrowed CTX and E-Trac, the video I did with the Excal. Here is that video:



Notice what happens each time the machine is allowed to reset, notice what happens after resetting as the iron and silver ring are passed through the search field at the same moment, just as they would be in the field.

Wow! I didn't know this. Wonder if it works with the Etrac?


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[Tom_in_CA]

big-scoop, the machine "setting itself to" the field is not new. And is not unique to just those units. Any motion machine (since the inception of the Red Baron SPD and Whites 6000D in 1978-ish) can show the same thing. For example, if you drew an object up close to the coil in an air-test. And just hold it steady like you showed in your video. Then yes, the threshold returns (as it adjust to "that amount of metal") . Eg. a horseshoe , or wrench, or even conductive targets. Then a subsequent target is passed and sounds off just fine.

But the devil is in the details: In actual field application of sweeping side to side, you never have a "constant" level of metal (whether conductive or iron) for there to be a "constant". So the machine will be perpetually readjusting to a myriad of concentrations of levels of targets. There's never a constant consistent level of iron in any one individual sweep of our detector coils So I don't see how your air test can be duplicated. You are holding the nail "still". Which can't be done with motion machines of needing to be swept (even if only subtly so).

 

[bigscoop]

big-scoop, the machine "setting itself to" the field is not new. And is not unique to just those units. Any motion machine (since the inception of the Red Baron SPD and Whites 6000D in 1978-ish) can show the same thing. For example, if you drew an object up close to the coil in an air-test. And just hold it steady like you showed in your video. Then yes, the threshold returns (as it adjust to "that amount of metal") . Eg. a horseshoe , or wrench, or even conductive targets. Then a subsequent target is passed and sounds off just fine.

But the devil is in the details: In actual field application of sweeping side to side, you never have a "constant" level of metal (whether conductive or iron) for there to be a "constant". So the machine will be perpetually readjusting to a myriad of concentrations of levels of targets. There's never a constant consistent level of iron in any one individual sweep of our detector coils So I don't see how your air test can be duplicated. You are holding the nail "still". Which can't be done with motion machines of needing to be swept (even if only subtly so).

Exactly! And yet you missed an important detail, when I referenced "a large" null, or an otherwise consistent state. That's exactly the point. This is also why I referenced the concrete boat ramp event, in which Mike was able to keep his machine in a constant state of null the entire time he was hunting it. If he lost that null, let the machine reset, then he simply allowed the machine to filter out the iron again before proceeding. Hence, "a large constant condition." I recently hunted a property that has huge iron plates underground, the same results here as well, though I only recovered a bunch of crap targets. But here's the catch as it applies to the subject of this thread, Me, Mike, all of those returns were above the iron where they could be seen, never below it. Yes, these are extreme cases, I realize that, but the simple notion that any iron mask feature can make iron transparent or invisible isn't very practical in our real world of metal detecting. They're still there and the processor is still having to deal with them. Yes? This is the same thing with notched out metals, all you're really doing is telling the machine, "You deal with them, but I don't want to hear about them." If "pass through" was really a practical application then why even offer features like notch? Why offer auto mask feature? Why not just allow the user the option of picking only those "fully masked" targets underneath? That's my point.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Yes there are individual isolated hunt oddities where this could come into play. Like a concrete boat ramp with rebar laced all through it.

One time I was hunting for a cache (for an estate looking for suspected buried jars the patriarch of the family was said to have buried). It was said to be "along a wall" of a "certain side of the house". Yet the house was plaster & lath type construction, with chicken screen inside the walls. So the moment I got within a foot of it, the toe of my machine would begin to pick it up.

So I started mentally compensating for that, and letting my machine detune to it, so-to-speak. But it's never quite perfect, as you can never hold the machine an EXACT distance or level from the source of metal concentrations. Nonetheless, the theory came in handy, as I got a hint of an object that was coming in stronger than the chicken screen. And presto, got a jar of silver coins buried right at the base of the wall.

 

[bigscoop]

Tom, if I have the time on Sunday (suppose to go up north for some water hunting) I'll use the Excal and create a 100% "pass through" using a thin steel washer and a dime and I'll put this in video "if" I can capture clear audio of those returns? Not sure I can do this clearly enough? Can it be done, absolutely. Is it reliable...?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... and create a 100% "pass through" using a thin steel washer and a dime ....

Huh ? I lost ya bro. Not sure what you're referring to , in regards to the conversation of the thread here. What exactly are you going to do with a steel washer & dime ? In order to mimic a real world scenario ? Not understanding you

 

[bigscoop]

Huh ? I lost ya bro. Not sure what you're referring to , in regards to the conversation of the thread here. What exactly are you going to do with a steel washer & dime ? In order to mimic a real world scenario ? Not understanding you

Well that's just it, "pass through" can even be done with the dime hidden behind a nickel, discriminate out the nickel and still be able to read the dime...."in a perfect world."

 

[digger27]

Well that's just it, "pass through" can even be done with the dime hidden behind a nickel, discriminate out the nickel and still be able to read the dime...."in a perfect world."

"In a perfect world"...and that's the catch.

Here in my dirt as you get deeper everything up averages, even nickels that are at 5"+ will come in higher than quarters but once I noticed this affect I used it to find many great targets.
On the other hand the more shallower targets still mostly act normal.
This disc out a nickel thing but still find a dime might not work so great if they are close enough and you are looking for normal behavior because you still have that normal target averaging going on.
In a pounded park I came across a signal that was into the bigger beaver tail range, a bit jumpy but still solid enough to go after it.
I dug a shallow plug and pulled out a 45 merc at only about an inch or two deep which surprised me.
I knew there had to be something else down there so I kept going and maybe about an inch deeper I come up with a 45 nickel.
Just regular averaging which I guess can be considered another form of masking.
If the coins were reversed, nickel high and the dime lower, I don't think it would have made much difference in the signal.

Any detector could have found these coins and this park had been scoured by many since metal detectors were invented but still these coins were there until I came along and decided to dig this trashy tab signal.
Using high disc and cherry picking I would have missed them completely.

No matter what settings we have or the capabilities of our tools it is still important to use common sense and dig a little more uncommon signals...until we can get that X Ray vision thing working, anyway.

 

[bigscoop]

"In a perfect world"...and that's the catch.

Here in my dirt as you get deeper everything up averages, even nickels that are at 5"+ will come in higher than quarters but once I noticed this affect I used it to find many great targets.
On the other hand the more shallower targets still mostly act normal.
This disc out a nickel thing but still find a dime might not work so great if they are close enough and you are looking for normal behavior because you still have that normal target averaging going on.
In a pounded park I came across a signal that was into the bigger beaver tail range, a bit jumpy but still solid enough to go after it.
I dug a shallow plug and pulled out a 45 merc at only about an inch or two deep which surprised me.
I knew there had to be something else down there so I kept going and maybe about an inch deeper I come up with a 45 nickel.
Just regular averaging which I guess can be considered another form of masking.
If the coins were reversed, nickel high and the dime lower, I don't think it would have made much difference in the signal.

Any detector could have found these coins and this park had been scoured by many since metal detectors were invented but still these coins were there until I came along and decided to dig this trashy tab signal.
Using high disc and cherry picking I would have missed them completely.

No matter what settings we have or the capabilities of our tools it is still important to use common sense and dig a little more uncommon signals...until we can get that X Ray vision thing working, anyway.

As it is right now that masked item, or some portion of it, needs to be seen, or, multiple targets need to be making physical contact with each other so they can be evaluated as one. Otherwise, a completely masked item is going to remain a completely masked item.

 

[b3y0nd3r]

Bring new this phenomenon is perplexing to me. I thought "man all these silver posts I bet I can find them too!" Yeah right it's tough!


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EXACTLY! There are "show boats" that flaunt silver and only tell half the story or lie. The hard work is rarely captured on media. That is why my videos show realistic metal detecting. Junk, clad, and sometimes a good find are the norm. Someone called videos that showboat "highlight reels" in another post. I tend to agree.

Here is the thing. People like to see only what their perceptions tell them. They see a guy digging gold coins and they think they can dig gold coins. This is dangerous thinking especially if the person is someone who has little respect for the hobby. Not only can they endanger themselves and others, but they can get the hobby banned to.

That is why i always try to preach responsibility to content producers. Tell the full story. Let them know the rarity of the situation if applicable. Im sure some will take offense by this stand, however, it is for the good of the community.