BELT PLATE, Real, Fake, Repro, Toy??????? HELP PLEASE

[pistol-pete]

Just found this belt plate in the Mining ghost town of Querida, CO. Active 1875-1895 era. Pleas help ID. As I said in title, is it, Real, Fake, Repro,Toy or ?? We don't find anything military related here, so I know nothing about this stuff. Many thanks in advance. Forgot to mention it's about 1/8" thick and measures 4 1/2" by 2 3/16" 100% brass. What about value?

 

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[m240042]

Looks good to me !!

US staff buckle.

Marv

 

[pistol-pete]

What period Marv?

 

[shawninNY]

What period Marv?

it appears he just thinks it looks good ! Not an answer to any of your questions! By your description of where you found it , there's a good chance it's the real thing ,

 

[shawninNY]

Research 1851 Contract buckle! That will put you on similar examples , good luck , and either way it's a great find! Shawn

 

[bigfoot1]

..oops...I double posted...see below

 

[bigfoot1]

good one pete !!It just may be you found your first civil war item.I located this one and it claims its an officers buckle.note that the silver overlay is missing on yours but it shows like it was there at one time.my best guess pete....

View attachment 1015965...and yours.....

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

At first glance, it appears to be a US Army Enlisted-men's Model-1851 swordbelt plate. But, the length measurement you reported (4&1/2") is much too big. I hope you meant to type a 3 instead of a 4. The longest of all the size-variations of US Army Model-1851 plates in the book "American Military Belt Plates" is 87mm (a bit less than 3&1/2 inches).

I identified yours as the Enlisted-men's version because it has an "applied" nickel-silver wreath, which is missing on your plate. The Officer version's wreath was part of the solid-cast brass plate.

 

[shawninNY]

Is his stamped? I thought from the pics it looked cast?

 

[pistol-pete]

CANNONBALLGUY and others. Many thanks. Mistyped the size, by my dial caliper it measures 3.480" by 2.164" The back looks identical to Bigfoot1's photo above. Found a number in the same place as his, 714 stamped. As to the plate I have no idea if stamped or cast. Please tell me what it should be? What would the number mean? Sorry for all the questions. however I've never even seen one of these and would like to know as much as possible about it.
I can only assume that a C.W. veteran came to this area to mine gold or work in the mines in the 1870-80's, still wearing it, and at sometime in time lost it. You can see areas of the front are worn from use, and the wreath is gone as mentioned. Any further info would be much appreciated. Pete aka Chris.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Thank you for correcting your measurements report. The size you now report, 2.164" by 3.480" (55mm by 88mm), is at the upper edge of the correct size-ranges for a genuine US Army Model-1851 swordbelt's eagle-&-wreath plate. That type was manufactured from 1851 through 1873. (But see the time-dating for yours, later in this post.)

You asked:
> As to the plate I have no idea if stamped or cast. Please tell me what it should be?

Your US Model-1851 swordbelt plate is solid-cast brass, as it should be. A "stamped" beltplate's back shows a reverse-image of the front.

> What would the number mean?

The number is a manufacturer's "bench mark." It is a "batch-number" at the manufacturer's workshop, not a serial-number.

> Sorry for all the questions.

No need to apologize for asking the questions. That is how each of us learned much of what we now know. My two primary "Mentors" in relic-collecting were very patient with my endless newbie questions. What I do here in the What-Is-It forum is payback for all the valuable knowledge they gave me, for free.

> I can only assume that a C.W. veteran came to this area to mine gold or work in the mines
> in the 1870-80's, still wearing it, and at sometime in time lost it.

That is fairly likely to be how it got to the spot where you dug it. At that time, such belts were not used to hold up your pants. Miners don't carry a sword, so your plate's belt was probably used to carry a pistol holster.

> I've never even seen one of these and would like to know as much as possible about it.
> Any further info would be much appreciated.

Okay, since you asked for more info:
As I mentioned above, the US Army Model-1851 swordbelt plate was manufactured from 1851 through 1873, then the Army replaced it with the Model-1874. I should mention, a comparatively small number of STAMPED-BRASS with LEAD-FILLED-BACK Model-1851 plates were made for various State Militias up until about 1900. You found the solid-cast version, which is the US Army Regulation version.

As I also mentioned previously... your plate had a nickel-silver wreath, which was soldered onto the cast-brass plate's front. The "applied" wreath is typically missing from excavated plates. Having an "applied" wreath means your plate is the Enlisted-men's version. On the Officer version, the wreath was brass, being simply an "area" of the solid-cast brass plate's emblem. On that version, after it came out of the casting-mold, "silverplating" was applied onto its wreath.

Your specific plate (there are at least two dozen slight variations in the emblem) is shown as plate #665 (page 400) in the book "American Military Belt Plates" by O'Donnell & Campbell. The book says your specific variety was manufactured only during 1864-65.

I suspect some readers will want to know, so I'll mention that your plate's dollar-value on the civil war collectors' market is around $200 or slightly higher. As I said above, the majority of dug Enlisted-men's ones are missing the applied nickel-silver wreath, so a dug one which still has the wreath is worth about $50 more.

 

[AU Seeker]

CBG,

Thanks for paying it forward, very informational post and I learned from it!!

 

[releventchair]

Yes thank you as always for your patient help CannonballGuy. H.H.
Congrats P. Pete!

 

[pistol-pete]

MANY Thanks CANNONBALLGUY, your a wealth of info. which I really really appreciate. Will order the belt plate book you mentioned. Again thanks for your help, Best wishes, Pete

 

[DigIron2]

I read somewhere, that the style with the rays that go down below the eagle are "occasionally" found out west.

 

[Fullstock]

One last thing, the number found on the back of the buckle would also be found on the matching belt keeper as well, go back and see if the keeper is still in the ground, it would be cool to find it. The silver wreaths on these were soldered onto the plate and after may years in the ground, the oxidation usually causes them to fall off. Very nice find and not as commonly found as the US oval.