be the first to answer my questions and win a barber halve dollar --

[ivan salis]

ok folks here it is * --- casatorres the govenor of cuba --- found out that the 1715 treasure fleet had wrecked when a boat sent from the wreck site -- arrived there -- some of the first words out of his mouth were "has any of the kings money been recovered yet ?" --- when told no by the men from the wrecked vessels that had come to havana --- he rapidly got 7 vessels stored up and prepared as salvage vessels and sent them * they arrived upon the scene on Sept 10 th, 1715 --

now the english govenor of virgina alexander spotswood wrote a letter dated - Oct 24th , 1715 (44 days after the "salvage vessels" had arrived on the scene) in a P. S. on the bottom of said letter --it stated that a "barcalonga"--(bark in english --the type of vessel that would be sent as a "salvage / rescue" vessel ) sent from havana to the fleet wreck site to pick up VIP'S and treasure was likewize castaway about 40 miles to the northward of st augustine --( in the nassau sound area ) I am aware of the wreck site area -- but now I want to "flesh out" my info ---

the "question" --- I am seeking the names and types of the 7 vessels that casatorres (the govenor of havana) sent to the 1715 wreck sites ( one of the 7 is the nassau sound vessel most likely)-- the info is most likely in the cuban archives * but --some of the rest of you migfht have seen referances to it elsewhere.

the time factor * is narrow --if the recovery vessels first got on the scene on sept 10th -- it would take awhile to recover and count and pack for shipment the goods -- say 3 weeks---( Oct 1st) -- then it had to set sail and wreck say 3-4 days later -(Oct 4th or 5th) -- then the wreck had to be "discovered" by english silver raiders ( good chance it was henry jennings) on their way down bound to loot the fleet salvage camps (say the 10th or so)--- upon the pirates return to virgina on the 20th or so they told spotswood (thus thats how spotswood found out about it -- via his "under the table" dealings with the silver raiders -- like many english govenors were prone to do.) the raiders told spotswood of their "discovery" prompting the his letter.

 

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[chipveres]

Dear Ivan:

Please remember that "barcalonga" literally means longboat, that is the largest of a ship's boats. So it is unlikely she had a name of her own, just "the longboat" or "tender to Big Ship Name". However, if the Governor sent seven vessels, some of them doubtless had names of their own. Unfortunately I do not know them so I cannot claim your prize. As you also know, there is a tendency to record the name and location of lost ships, while just ignoring or taking for granted those still floating.

Chip V.

 

[ivan salis]

yes the term "barcalonga" was "properly" used to mean "boat long" or "longboat" (in english ) a 40 to 50 foot longboat type single masted "open" vessel or a shallow water type of salvage type vessel . --- I am trying to track down more info on this vessel --clearly it was going "northly" when most if not all the other vessels from havana were returning southward towards havana with "recovered items" from the fleet wreck sites to be counted and later on "reshipped"--- according to spotswoods letter this vessel tasked with gathering and shipping --- VIP type persons and royal loot to spain --( the king of spain was urgently awaiting the queens "dowery" items to get to spain --- to help get her "in the mood" so to speak via offical bribery ( her jewels and "goodies")

if this "longboat" was lost --there should be some record of it --- what with the VIPS and the loss of important royal items on it --- the cuban archives or other spanish record should "record" the loss even if they do not know exactly where it was lost -- even if that meant of recording it as a "missing" / or lost vessel.-- the "offical records" should still "reflect" that fact.

 

[Reefdrifter]

Ivan,
You may find some interesting reading at the following web site. I just found it and didn't know if you knew about it or not. www.benersonlittle.com

I have not yet read anything but they show various types of Barcalonga and other pirate stuff.

See what you think.

Bob

 

[Salvor6]

Ivan, did you ever consider hiring a professional researcher to go into the archives and find this info? I did that and I got 10,000 pages of copies from the original documents in Seville and Simancas. He then translated them and sent me copies of that! There are researchers that can go into the archives in Cuba and find the documents you need within a matter of hours. One guy that comes to mind is Roger Dooley. He is a native Cuban and knows the Cuban archives like his home.

 

[ivan salis]

being a native cuban would make it much easier to gain access their archives , I'm quite sure --translations not a issue I can do that myself * its just that , I was wondering if anyone here on tnet knew it already off the top of their heads --maybe they stumbled accros it when researching other info -- my minds full of odd facts and interesting tidbits of info , I have gathered up over the years -- I figger I'm not the only one in the world who's mind is full of interesting bits of info. --so why not ask ? never hurts to ask now does it?---

hiring a "pro - researcher" can be costly ---most info I can get to one way or another myself ( since I do a good bit of research and some traslation work myself ) but once in awhile --I like all researchers hit a " snag"

 

[chipveres]

According to Marion Link, Sergeant Juan del Hayo Solarzano had one frigate and seven sloops in his rescue fleet. The sloops were probably the longboats we have been talking about. But I still have no ship names.

Chip V.

 

[ivan salis]

its the names of those 7 "rescue" shallow water type single masted sloops ( about 50 long) that I' m after --aka as "barca-longo" in spanish or "longboats" in english --- I am trying to account for them * and need the names of the vessels sent -- or persons sent in command of those vessels (ANYTHING to start hunting down the "lost" one via archive records with) ---or a report of one of them being lost while in transit to spain to help "put a name" on my nassau sound wreck . I know what happened to it and what it was and where it came from and what is was carrying (the important facts salvage wise --but I would still like its "story") thus I just want to flesh out the story a bit more. to give it some "life"

 

[Voldbjerg]

Hi Ivan,

I have read this thread with great interest. I think you have mixed up your ship types.

1: Long boat: This was one of the small vessels that sailing ships carried. It was meant to be rowed by 8-10 oarsmen. The ships also carried dingys and cutters.
2: Barcalonga: It might translate into longboat but it is a ship type used in spain by fishermen for example. Its sturdy built with a low draft and carry one or two mast rigged with lugging sails. I think it is these kind of boats that mentioned and if that is so they should carry their own names.

Well that's just my 2 cents worth of opinion - what do you think?

/V

 

[Voldbjerg]

Hi Ivan et al,

I was just wondering where the names of the 7 ships could be found.

My guesses would be:
1: Havana harbour log book
2: Salvage camp commanders log book
3: Each of the ships log book would most likely mention the names of the other ships the the flotilla.

What other spanish institutions would register the names of the ships?

/V

 

[Chagy]

Ahoy!!! Ivan,

I believe that the problem is that “barcalongo” is a British word. I’ve also seen it called “Spanish barcalongo”

http://books.google.com/books?id=a8...fP84kb&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5

See the word “longo” has no meaning in Spanish in some English dictionaries it will tell you that is a type of Spanish vessel like the one listed above but if you try to translate the word “barcalongo” you will see that there is no such word in Spanish....Long is “largo” in Spanish not “longo”

I have read a lot of Spanish documents and I have never seen the word or term “barcalongo”

 

[jeff k]

Barca. Generic term for all small shipping intended for fishing, cargo transport and traffic on the coasts, ports and rivers. Therefore in these there are various kinds or forms and rigging, and this is without counting the large and small punts (flat bottomed boats). These last are also known as batel, esquife, lancha, leño, barquicihuelo etc; although in some old documents one sees them called navichuelo. Commonly the ... barca is the ships boat; and at other times the barge or lighter of the port stevedores. .

Barcos Luengos. Streamlined open boats of reduced draught that are propelled by oars (Serrano Mangas 1989:70).

Balandra. Small ship with a single mast, spanker sail and various jibs.

 

[ivan salis]

the actual wording as original told to spotswood might have really been --- barca - longo in spanish --- as told by a spanish speaker to get "paid" for a bit of information --- the verbage might have twisted a bit by the english speaking ( alexander spotswood - was the english govenor of virginia who used the term "barcalongo" (via wikipedia "barca - longo"--is a spanish fasr sailing two to three masted lugger type of vessel often used as dispatch vessels ) * in his Oct 24th of 1715 letter in the PS at the bottom of the letter to lord stanhope spotswood says "barcalongo" in stead of barca - longo .)---the same way the the spanish word for silver "plata" -- was twisted and used by the english as "plate" * --since it sound like "platter" or a plate to them .-- thus the plata (silver) fleet becomes --the "plate" fleet in english.

the bulk of the resuce vessels were 50 foot long shallow draft single masted sloop type vessels (balandras) -- were ideal rescue & treasure recovery vessels and are what I'm talking about --- they are quite a bit differant that the vessels "life boat" type - long boats" which were much smaller --- althought a common wordage was used on both of them ---LONG BOAT --- they are highly very differant vessels.

there should be some record ofthe 7 sloop one masted vessels (and the one frigate *--having more than one mast --might the frigate be the "barca - longo"? being both are multi masted? ---- being they left the harbor in havana when they were "dispatched" from havana to recover the treasure from the 1715 wreck sites * and since its reported that the treasure for the most part was returned to havana for safe keeping and reshipment -- there should also be a "record" of them "returning" to havana ---except for --"the missing one" --- if 8 left - and 7 returned later on -- that only leaves --one "unaccounted for"

if they came from cuba and arrived upon the 1715 fleet scene on sept 10th , 1715 -- and spotswood letter was written on oct 24th, 1715 --thats only 44 days apart -- say it took 3 weeks of gathering to get the goods (oct 1st) --a few days to sail to nassau sound and wreck (oct 5th) a few days more to be found by english backed silver raiders (oct 9 th) on their way down bound from virginia to pillage the 1715 silver camps --- then a couple weeks for the pirates to go punder those camps and return to virginia (oct 23rd ) and the next day spotswood puts pen to paper . (oct 24th , 1715) --of course thats guess work at this point but i think of it as a rough time line.

 

[Chagy]

Dear Ivan,

I know how much you really want to find this wreck..... I’m not really interested in it so I will help as much as I can in my free time or if I come across the information while working on my own project like I did today.

The majority of the vessels used for the for the 1715 salvage were balandras (one -mastede sailing sloop) In all the salvage documents there is no mention of the names of these vessels they are always referred to the balandras send to salvage.

Today I came across a letter written by Don Domingo de Aranjo (it doesnt have a date but is in the 1715 bundle of documents) (keep in mind that there were salvage efforts done in 1715,1716 and 1717) Aranjo mentions that the names of some of these vessels were “Nuestra Señora de la Leche”, “Jesus Nazareno” and “El Ave Maria”

I hope this help!!!

All the best,

Chagy........

 

[Chagy]

Ivan,

These were the type of vessels used on Solorzano’s salvage expedition...

A la primera noticia que se tubo el la Havana del desastre, convoco el Governador a los consignatarios, y con su acuerdo dispuso se fletaran y se armaran los buques disponibles y a proposito para enprender en seguida el buceo de los cascos perdidos, que fueron una fragata y siete balandras de corsarios. Confio la empreesa al sargento mayor de la plaza Don Juan del Hoyo Solorzano.

When the news of the disaster arrived to Havana the Governor ordered to prepare and arm the available vessels to salvage the hulls. These vessels were 1 fragata and 7 balandras. The salvage expedition commanded by Mayor Sargent Don Juan del Hoyo Solorzano.

 

[ivan salis]

chagy thats good nuff for a silver half * need a address* -- 3 names is a start --- #1 our lady of the milk (nuestra senora de la leche) --- #2 jesus ( while not written it means - implying a person of / from) nazareth (jesus nazarano) #3 the ave maria --(El ave maria - the hail mary ( seaman were always seeking "devine help" because of the hazards of the sea) -- its the same as the catholic prayer * --I know since I'm catholic ) --so many hail marys , so many our farther for your pinnace .


balandras (sloop in english) were common of the day --- shallow draft single masted boats of smallish size --

barca-longa *(check wikipedia) spanish two to three masted lugger type vessel --commonly found in the med -- it was in use during the 1715 era (as dispatch boats )

if it was indeed a "barca - longo" or multi sailed lugger type vessel --- thus a type of vessel often used as a "fast dispatch / messenger / mail type vessel" similar in both use and size to a "fragata" or small frigate rather than a single masted sloop type rig like the 7 balandra type vessels" --being only one "fragata" was dispatched --that would cut the odds greatly indeed.

 

[Chagy]

Dear Ivan,

Thank you so much for the offer, but I did not do it for the price, I helped you because I love research and I love helping others. So there is no need to send the coin.......

Now going back to the research.....sometimes even if you get the correct translation doesn’t mean you’ve got the correct translation......

The first one you got it right....”Nuestra Señora de la Leche” = “Our Lady of Milk” as funny as it sounds it is correct.

“Jesus Nazareno” you were close but is not exactly “Jesus of /from Nazareth” in order to be “Jesus of /from Nazareth” it would be “Jesus de Nazare”.........If some one was born in America they would call him the American.....Among Latin people Jesus is aka as El Nazareno....So its kinda like “Jesus American” (if he would have been born in America)

And the last one “El Ave Maria” the correct translation would be “The Bird Mary”....El Ave Maria is the name of the Catholic prayer done to Virgin Mary (The mother of Jesus)

Dios te salve Maria llena eres de gracias, el Señor sea contigo, bendita tu eres entre todas las mujeres y bendito sea el reino de tu vientre Jesus. Santa Maria madre de Dios ruega por nosotros pecadores ahora y en la hora de nuestra muerte...Amen.

God Bless!!!

Chagy......

 

[jeff k]

Ivan... If the other ships brought the treasure back to Havana, then wouldn't it follow that the missing ship was bringing survivors to St. Augustine? If that's the case then there shouldn't be much treasure on her, if any.

 

[ivan salis]

no -- the point is cassatorres as govenor of cuba knew -word of the disaster needed to be sent to spain *right away --- along with whatever high value royal items could be rapidly recovered (to cushion the blow of the bad news to the king) so this vessel was spain bound not st augustine bound -- nassau sound is way above st augustine 40 miles or so -- shortly after arriving the "boss men" from havana who were in charge of the treasure recovery found out that the earlier looted money taken from the wrecks by survivors who fled toward st augustine seeking to escape with it before word of the wrecks got out was grabbed up by local catholic church officals upon their arrival they were "grabbed" stripped of the money and "executed"---however the church grabbed up the "money" claiming it for themselves and threated to "excumicate" anyone who barred them from it --- so after that strict orders were put into place --no treasure was to go into st augustine ** but this vessel was not bound there in the first place ---being one of the "first capible of long distance ocean crossing type vessels" from havana to visit the sites -- was tasked to "see" first hand and make a"proper" report to the king and as such was to get whatever they could of the kings stuff and then go forth with it and a "accurite" account of what they "saw" to the king . --thus she was "homeward bound" with "first hand news reports and letters from on the scene commanders " and high value items.

 

[jlb783]

The Nina the Pinta and the Santa Maria.
I'm sorry I wish I could help.