Bayonet/Small Sword

[cgossett95]

My mother-in-law, who lives in Chattanooga Tennessee, found this in her yard while have some foundation work done. We believe it to be a Civil War bayonet but are not sure. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

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[Retired Sarge]

I know the United States, Japan, Turkey, Argentina, France and Germany (Plus all the counties that Germany exported to, the Mauser was a popular rifle) all used a similar style bayonet.

Now I could be wrong (Wouldn't be the first time) but the French ones that I've seen have all been sway-back ones. I know most of the ones in Turkey were later modified around WWI and had the hooked lower quillon (blade breaker) cut down, and the blade shorten.

I think we will be hard pressed to correctly attribute this bayonet until it is cleaned. Once markings are found, if possible, then we can tell who made it and so forth. Again just my un-educated opinion.

Mike
USAF Retired

 

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[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

I suspected it was French. I purchased it at a "jumble" sale in Brighton, England. But I have a WWI recruiting poster with Lady Liberty getting a little agressive carrying a bayonette that seems to be and close or exact copy.

I looked up my old listing and this was it:

Mine wan't in the best of shape, and it lacked a scabbard. The model is known as a "Gras" bayonet. It was dated EDIT: 1879 and had the name of the French town it was made in (or possibly the armory where it was stored) written in cursive on the blade.

The bayonet saw action in the following conflicts -

French Indo-China in 1873-1874 and again in 1882-1883;
Sino-French War 1883-1885;
Madagascar Wars 1883-1885 and 1895;
1st Mandingo-French War 1883-1886;
1st Dahomeyan-French War 1889-1990;
2nd Dahomeyan-French War 1892-1894;
2nd Mandingo-French War 1894-1895;
Conquest of Chad 1897-1914;
3rd Mandingo-French War 1898;
Moroccan War 1907-1912;
World War I (early)

 

[Retired Sarge]

Well, per hombre_de_plata_flaco's post with a picture no doubt, it looks like I will be eating my hat, thank goodness for hot sauce. I had never seen a straight blade French one in this style that I could recall. Thank you for the setting me straight

Mike
USAF Retired

 

[High Plains Digger]

I will look for an engraving on my straight one. My swayback definiately has an town and a year. I looked it up and I think, but don't hold me, that it was where it was made, and I think there was an armory there also. And the year. I think I may have to shoot my recruiting poster and get the blade back out and search for an engraving. Maybe we will have 2 id's from one request. Hombre, ya'll are the hombre.

By the way, Mike USAF Ret., I was watching WWI footage one time, and I was pretty sure I saw the swayback. It was a quick, but I would have sworn....... It seems like all sides had these super long bayonettes. I had a friend at the office bring in 3 that her grandpa brought back from WWI. A US, a British, and a German. I don't remember everything about all of them, but the German was not a blade, but it seemed round and very wicked. I was stunned at how evil it looked. I may have had some ridges or something on it. I was in shock.

 

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

Well, per hombre_de_plata_flaco's post with a picture no doubt, it looks like I will be eating my hat, thank goodness for hot sauce. I had never seen a straight blade French one in this style that I could recall. Thank you for the setting me straight

Mike
USAF Retired

Don't eat yer' hat on account of me. If I had never run across this particular weapon I would have no clue about it. It's the only bayonet I have ever bought/sold/briefly owned. My wife wanted it gone because the kid was itchin' to play with it. He was jealous of me swinging it around all over the house...

Here's where I got my info:

http://arms2armor.com/Bayonets/fren1874.htm

 

[High Plains Digger]

Mine is apparently just like yours, but no engraving, and no scabbard, also. Ok, hombre, the site you sent, St, Entienne is where my swayback came from. Memory is good on that one. But I so suck when it came to Lady Liberty. She is carrying a very interesting bayonette--anyone have any suggestions what it might be? The poster is dated 1916.

And on that, I have only done limited searching on WWI Recruiting posters, but have not found this one. I may have to put it on it's own thread to be more polite. But any knowledge from the top of the head would be appreciated.

Regarding the subject of the thread, I agree that a good cleaning will help, but I am not too sure that we will be able to know the country of origin. Seems like it may be somewhat generic. Finding engraving on the top of the blade....priceless!

 

[Retired Sarge]

HPD I know the Germans had the Butcher and the Sawback versions both of which had the ridges on the top edge of the blade. Plus they had a Socket bayonet (Cruciform), plus the style we are seeing here in this post.

BTW your poster is of Miss Columbia, not Lady Liberty, google Miss Columbia and you'll find out more.

Mike
USAF Retired

 

[High Plains Digger]

That's what it was! Like I said, wicked. Right on.

add on: Cruciform is what I ment to say it was. I was just having a memory flash event. Doesn't happen every day.

another add on: I didn't know there was a difference. Both appear to be similarish. I shall endeavor the expand my knowledge. Hence the reason for the name of the poem in the lower right corner is "Columbia Calls". Could she be Lady Liberty's little sister?

last add on: Although she is slightly homely, a lot easier on the eyes than Uncle Sam, and a lot less guilt trip from her, too.

 

[High Plains Digger]

Ok Mike USAF Ret., I googled Miss Columbia as you suggested, and it was all there! Boy, did I learn a few things. But now, I can never refer to "walking liberty halves" again. Do you think that after all these years we can get everyone to change to "walking Columbias"? Doesn't appear to physically be any difference between Miss C and the walkers. This revelation could put the US coin world into spasms. I am going to blame this on you!

 

[Retired Sarge]

HPD I learn more from y'all on this site then I give, I just get lucky once in a while and actually know something. Oh great now I really stepped in it didn't I? Blame the class clown for everything!

Mike
USAF Retired

 

[Retired Sarge]

The more I look at this blade the more I think it's either for an Arisaka or a Lee Enfield. Notice the blade isn't the same on the top and bottom, also the blade isn't curved or sway-back. This blade is straight across the top, and curved across the bottom.

Look at post 11 first picture: The top and bottom bayonets notice how the blade is the same on the top and bottom. The one in question isn't like this, its' blade resembles the Lee Enfield and Arisaka style blade.

The hooked lower quillon is obviously bent, the blade has a fuller groove, but I can't tell if the upper quillon is holed to accept a rifle barrel.

Mike
USAF Retired

 

[Lucky13]

Nice Bayonet.thanks for sharing

 

[High Plains Digger]

Mike--you have your Arisaka handy, does it have a T back? I am almost sure that the subject has the t-back on it, but probably not a blood groove. But you are right as far as the shape of the blade--shall we for convience sake call the subject style "hunting point" (subject, L-Enf, Araisaka) and the other style as "dagger point"? Just for making references easier. The subject has the hunting point. I have a couple of others that I haven't put up for comparison, and I think they have both types of points. Where is the poster? If we had good measurements, we could maybe get closer. I don't know what difference it may make, though, as I am not sure of the origin of my other blades. One seems to be close enough to your Arisaka, but without the curved/ball end. It is even dated 1907, just the right time for the Japaneese to get stomped on by the Russians, but no oriental markings and nothing else I can figure out.

But I'll bet that the subject not having a blood groove will throw a monkey into the wrench.

 

[DevilDog812]

arisaka bayonet if you ask me
electrolysis would solve the mystery, but for now, here is a recent example obtained by another t-netter
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,413380.0.html

 

[DevilDog812]

its 3am, but i felt like doing some photoshopping
top is Arisaka Bayonet
bottom is the found bayonet

you can see that everything matches up, even the screws in the hilt

 

[High Plains Digger]

So, assuming that the quillion (?) is bent, then this is a dead ringer, isn't it? That is hard to beat evidence. Would like to see the subject cleaned up.

 

[High Plains Digger]

DD812: If I put my bayonette without the quillion, dated 1907, up on the board would you be so kind as to do the side by side comparison with the Arisaka? Maybe all 3 together. Just curious. I suspect it is a variant as offered in the web rererred to by texastea. Thanks

 

[High Plains Digger]

Devildog: This looks like it will match the subject and the Arisaka that ffuries has. The lack of the hooked quillon is a known variant. Would you work your magic and put the three together? I think that would make a second confirmation with the subject bayonette. In fact, by including the poster and the long French bayonette that Hombre and I had in common, that would be at least 4 green check marks on this thread. Well done, cgosset95. Get that mother-in-law of yours back out there digging around. Let me tell you how to get her some help: Send her a postcard (so that busy eyes will read it) with "Gee, mom, I wish you wouldn't dig around in the back yard any more. There are too many bodies buried there." and there will be all kinds of people (agencies) wanting to help explore her yard.

 

[DevilDog812]

Devildog: This looks like it will match the subject and the Arisaka that ffuries has. The lack of the hooked quillon is a known variant. Would you work your magic and put the three together? I think that would make a second confirmation with the subject bayonette. In fact, by including the poster and the long French bayonette that Hombre and I had in common, that would be at least 4 green check marks on this thread. Well done, cgosset95. Get that mother-in-law of yours back out there digging around. Let me tell you how to get her some help: Send her a postcard (so that busy eyes will read it) with "Gee, mom, I wish you wouldn't dig around in the back yard any more. There are too many bodies buried there." and there will be all kinds of people (agencies) wanting to help explore her yard.

sorry HPD, im sick today and my head isnt clear. are you asking me to do the same thing with the found bayonet, yours, and the one that ffuries posted?

 

[High Plains Digger]

Yes, but when you are feeling better. And I hope that is soon. It is the pits to be sick in the summer.

All three together would be fantastic!