ball projectile (update) 16th Century battle near my house

[Discrimination Dave]

I have pretty much confirmed that this is an old musket ball.
I did some research and found that muskets arrived in japan in 1543 via a Dutch shipwreck.
By 1560 they had been replicated and were in use all over Japan.
One of the three dudes credited with unifying feudal japan towards the end of a really long civil war(late 16th Century, Oda Nobunaga was famous for his musket tactics. He used three rows of foot soldiers for his muskets, the forward row firing only and the rear two reloading only. He won a decisive battle that way. Turns out he (Oda Nobunaga) destroyed a castle at Mount Shigi in 1578 and it is only 1.92 miles from my house (measured on Google Earth)
I also read that the size of musket balls were from 13mm to 20 mm. Mine is 14mm.
So I am hyped and have a little treasure I think.
I am going to climb that mountain and hunt the castle ruins when it warms up a little.
Thanks for looking.
dave

 

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[cntrydncr1]

Re: ball projectile

well I know nothing of these but it looks like my revolutionary musketball. At least you are getting out to hunt. we are frozen in here.

 

[vayank54]

Re: ball projectile

It's probably about a .44 caliber. It could be civil war or rev war. It's definitely a round ball though

 

[Discrimination Dave]

Re: ball projectile

Thanks you guys.
Coming from PA and N. Va, You guys should know what your talking about.
I can`t get a good pic though. busted the lcd screen on my digital camera and it is next to impossible to get a pic (can`t see the focus, mode, ie macro etc.) Been using my cell phone lately.
It has a lot more white patina that the pictures show. I would love to know more about old firearms in these parts (japan).

 

[ivan salis]

Re: ball projectile

the japanese warlords of old tradationally used the warroir caste known as samurai as the armies -- they fought with swords , bow. spears and such --- but then one of their warlords used "modern weapons "-- guns (muskets) --- now a basically unskilled "warrior" could kill a otherwise highly trained enemy warrior --needless to say he became the ruler of the country in short order --and once he did he banned "samurai" form existing as a caste forever .

 

[Discrimination Dave]

Re: ball projectile

the japanese warlords of old tradationally used the warroir caste known as samurai as the armies -- they fought with swords , bow. spears and such --- but then one of their warlords used "modern weapons "-- guns (muskets) --- now a basically unskilled "warrior" could kill a otherwise highly trained enemy warrior --needless to say he became the ruler of the country in short order --and once he did he banned "samurai" form existing as a caste forever .

Hey Ivy Baby! Long Time no hear.
I heard the Japanese got fire power (guns) originally from the Dutch. A Dutch shipwreck I heard in about 1540.
You know anything about it?

 

[ivan salis]

Re: ball projectile

theres a treasure wreck spanish * over there I know of

check out the movie " the last samuari "-- tom cruise movie * not 100 % historically accurate but it will give you the basic ideal.

 

[Discrimination Dave]

Re: ball projectile

theres a treasure wreck spanish * over there I know of

Just My Luck!
Im landlocked now since we got the new place. I think this is the only prefecture in japan with no coastline!
I don't suppose they crashed during a super flood?

 

[vayank54]

Re: ball projectile

I just noticed you were in Japan. DUH Sorry. The roundball probably dates 1700's to mid 1800's. I'm not sure when they started using the .44 calibers or calibers in that range. I know the 1700's Kentucky and PA long guns were about .44 or so.
In Japan it might be a completely different story though

 

[ivan salis]

Re: ball projectile

ah no --the ryukyu island chain (Miyako island) * the local islanders have records of a large ship that wrecked about 200 and some odd years ago --two of the locals are searching for this wreck -- ( book form the 60's -- the treasure divers guide by potter ) a silver candelabrum and a large flag salvaged from what is believed to be a spanish "manila" galleon , are on nearby Ishguki island * at the Miyara Dunchi Palace --wood used in building the palace is said to have come from the shipwreck itself.

gun ownership has ALWAYS been very very tightly controlled in japan --the old warlords knew it took only 1 marksman to kill them with a gun --- master long range bowmen samurai types were not known as "for hire killers" or ninja --it was dishonorible to kill that way to them

guns by and large were treated with contempt by the professional warrriors of japans "samurai" class , and as such until a certain warlord --broke with tradation and trained "peasents" how to be musket men --and by using them doing volley fire----- he wiped all of his foes off the feild of battle , becoming the "boss"and once that occured ---in 1871 the han system or old caste system was basically repealed --- finally the emperor basically banned the samurai from existing anymore in 1876 by royal edict that forbid the carrying of swords -- their badge of office

the old samuari clans -- later on became many of the powerful industrail heavy weights in japans bussiness world -- their "clan" symbols are seen on many of todays japanese cars -- toyota , mitsubithi , ect.

for the bussiness is the new "war" to be fought.

 

[Discrimination Dave]

Re: ball projectile

I just noticed you were in Japan. DUH Sorry. The roundball probably dates 1700's to mid 1800's. I'm not sure when they started using the .44 calibers or calibers in that range. I know the 1700's Kentucky and PA long guns were about .44 or so.
In Japan it might be a completely different story though

Thank you VA Yank.
You said the ball could date from 1700`s to mid 1800`s.
I am just curious, are you basing that on the look of the artifact itself? (patina).
I'm posted a few new pictures that i hope are better.
It has a gouge or two on one side.
d.

 

[Discrimination Dave]

Re: ball projectile

ah no --the ryukyu island chain (Miyako island) * the local islanders have records of a large ship that wrecked about 200 and some odd years ago --two of the locals are searching for this wreck -- ( book form the 60's -- the treasure divers guide by potter ) a silver candelabrum and a large flag salvaged from what is believed to be a spanish "manila" galleon , are on nearby Ishguki island * at the Miyara Dunchi Palace --wood used in building the palace is said to have come from the shipwreck itself.

Interesting information Ivan,
Thank you for that!

 

[vayank54]

Re: ball projectile

I'm going by when they were in use here. The color helps, if it were a reproduction it would be white like it is. The best way to date it is to go by other relics dug in the area you dug the ball. Sometimes it's almost impossible as there may have been a wide span of time an area was used and other times you might be able to pin when an item was lost down to within a day or so if you have a history of the area and it was only used for a short time. One good example of that is a civil war ID pin I dug. I dug it at the spot where a unit got off a train. It was the only time they were at that site so the pin had to be lost at that time. That's the exception more than the rule though, I'm afraid

 

[Discrimination Dave]

Re: ball projectile

That is awesome, about pinpointing the train departure time. Nice! Id love to read that post.
Over here dirt is such a commodity that they move it around here and there and everything is all mixed up. It is nothing like back home in Texas. Also not much flat land. I reckon that's why they started the war.
One of these days I hope to find a nice flat untouched place with some history on it.
I will.

 

[vayank54]

Re: ball projectile

I never posted it. It was back in the early 80's They had cleared a lot in Manassas and there were a lot of bullets but not much else. My main detector a bounty hunter RB5 ( the first bad ground discriminator) was broken and I was using a 440 Fiisher which didn't discriminate. There area was trashy ( alot of aluminum and beer cans) I was hunting an area where dirt had been pushed up into an old well. In all the beer cans I dug a buckle that was completely doubled over. It turned out to be an OVM (OVM) a few minutes later and right up next to the well I got the ID shield. The first thing I saw was IRON BRIGADE War of 1861. The pin belong to Sgt Richard Corcoran of Co C 6th Wis. The site I dug it was where the 6th got off the train to go to 2nd Manassas. The OVM and the pin were the only 2 relics I dug that day but I still think that is one of the best days I have had.

 

[ivan salis]

Re: ball projectile

land is very very important in japan because theres so little of it -- thats why beef and pork are so costly there -- it takes a lot of room to grow cows and pigs -- (very little to grow chickens stacked one upon another in cages)-- thats also why seafood is such a large part of the japanese diet historically speaking -- and why many japanese "grow" things in lil window boxes and anywhere something can be planted theres something growing there .

control of food brought you people to your banner as a old time warlord --controlling the peasent farmers was the key -- the samurai were the "enforcers"-- as a farmer you gave over your "taxed" amount and got "protection" from the warlord --if not you got whacked by the warlords samurai -- in its own way it was very much like a bunch of mafia "protection rackets" in action --on a national scale