Aztec Artifacts in the US ?
- Thread starter Samanthy
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joshuaream
Silver Member
Not the shortest answer but here goes.
The Uto-Aztecan language group is a language family that ranges over the western US and down towards Central America. That’s not to say that they spoke the same language, but parts of it would have been similar and neighboring groups would have likely understood each other. That simple fact helps influence trade as items can get passed from group to group and over a period of years or generation items can spread a long way.
Culturally, there are a lot of similarities that are hard to explain without some shared knowledge of what other groups were doing. Things like Monolithic axes, round shell gorgets, long bifaces with a rather unique taper and tip, earspools, as evidenced from some carvings hairstyles (specifically the top knot), tattooing, the weeping eye design, flat sided and flat topped mounds, and many other things point to some degree of commonality. It wasn’t specifically a religion, but it’s too many unique things to have been independently invented.
Specific relics: The Aztecs weren’t really the biggest group in Central Mexico, and they weren’t around the longest either. If you add in some of the West Mexico, Guerrero and Mixtec groups, you get a pretty good sample of contact between the big centers and the groups based in what is now the US. There have been a few samples of obsidian from Central Mexico found in Texas and Oklahoma. There have been some small jade beads found in Texas that would have likely come from indirect trade (trade of trade of trade) vs direct trade. There is a type of crotal bell that originated in Central Mexico found across a wide area in the west.
Interesting enough there have been some remains of parrots and macaws in Arizona or New Mexico that would have come from well south of the Aztec area. Not easy to breed them, so it might be the best evidence of trade that happened within a year or two vs potentially over generations. The Southwest groups would have gotten them from the Paquime/Casa Grandes groups across the border in Chihuahua who had direct trade with groups in Central Mexico.
North to South there seems to have been a flow of a couple of different materials (turquoise and some metals) which probably supported the trade.
The Uto-Aztecan language group is a language family that ranges over the western US and down towards Central America. That’s not to say that they spoke the same language, but parts of it would have been similar and neighboring groups would have likely understood each other. That simple fact helps influence trade as items can get passed from group to group and over a period of years or generation items can spread a long way.
Culturally, there are a lot of similarities that are hard to explain without some shared knowledge of what other groups were doing. Things like Monolithic axes, round shell gorgets, long bifaces with a rather unique taper and tip, earspools, as evidenced from some carvings hairstyles (specifically the top knot), tattooing, the weeping eye design, flat sided and flat topped mounds, and many other things point to some degree of commonality. It wasn’t specifically a religion, but it’s too many unique things to have been independently invented.
Specific relics: The Aztecs weren’t really the biggest group in Central Mexico, and they weren’t around the longest either. If you add in some of the West Mexico, Guerrero and Mixtec groups, you get a pretty good sample of contact between the big centers and the groups based in what is now the US. There have been a few samples of obsidian from Central Mexico found in Texas and Oklahoma. There have been some small jade beads found in Texas that would have likely come from indirect trade (trade of trade of trade) vs direct trade. There is a type of crotal bell that originated in Central Mexico found across a wide area in the west.
Interesting enough there have been some remains of parrots and macaws in Arizona or New Mexico that would have come from well south of the Aztec area. Not easy to breed them, so it might be the best evidence of trade that happened within a year or two vs potentially over generations. The Southwest groups would have gotten them from the Paquime/Casa Grandes groups across the border in Chihuahua who had direct trade with groups in Central Mexico.
North to South there seems to have been a flow of a couple of different materials (turquoise and some metals) which probably supported the trade.
joshuaream
Silver Member
Sorry for the long winded answer, it’s a topic that I really enjoy studying.
newnan man
Gold Member
Great answer Joshua, I read that a lot of items in N. Fl. & Ga. showed evidence of central Mexico influence. Mounds, pipes, axes, etc.
If you study Cahokia in IL you will come to the conclusion that they were Aztecs that came from Mexico. Many of the artifacts from Cahokia look identical to Aztec artifacts. Google "Cahokia arrow point", then google "Aztec arrow point". They are the same. Cahokia was laid out as a city before it was built. It wasn't a small village that got larger. If featured a "wood henge", similar to Stone Hedge, which was their calendar. Also the huge mound they built. For whatever reason, a large group split from Mexico and came north around 600 AD. I don't see archaeologists pushing this idea, but I believe it's true. Gary
joshuaream
Silver Member
Gary,
A lot of similarities, but Cahokia is about 300 years older than the Aztec culture. If one came from the other, it was Cahokia snow birds headed south for the winter.
Joshua
A lot of similarities, but Cahokia is about 300 years older than the Aztec culture. If one came from the other, it was Cahokia snow birds headed south for the winter.
Joshua
BillA
Bronze Member
Joshua, just slightly off-topic
can you address metal working north of Mexico ?
My understanding is that the progression is the hammering of native metal (w/annealing?), reduction of ore w/crushing, lost wax casting w/alloying, ??
I am aware of the progression of the lost wax casting technique progressing north from Columbia, through Central America, and into Mexico.
can you address metal working north of Mexico ?
My understanding is that the progression is the hammering of native metal (w/annealing?), reduction of ore w/crushing, lost wax casting w/alloying, ??
I am aware of the progression of the lost wax casting technique progressing north from Columbia, through Central America, and into Mexico.
BillA
Bronze Member
joshuaream
Silver Member
It kind of fits the Aztec origin story that they believe of coming from somewhere in the north. Personally, I think there is so much in common that there had to be some common shared knowledge. The Greeks knew what the Persians and people in India were doing well before Alexander the Great trudged his army over there.
Charl
Silver Member
I too have a life long interest in connections between the cultures of the American Southwest and Mesoamerica. Here is a general page discussing possible connections. Note, the info is not Aztec-specific, but rather connections to Mesoamerican civilizations and Mesoamerican worldview in general:
https://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/you-contribute/mesoamerica-and-the-north-american-southwest
I think, of all the Southwest cultures, perhaps the ancient Hohokam of the Phoenix to Tucson region, reflect more connections, via trade and world view, with the high cultures to their south. One cultural feature of Hohokam culture in particular, ballcourts, may have been derived from the ballcourt games played by those Mesoamerican cultures:
https://www.archaeologicalconservancy.org/the-mystery-of-hohokam-ballcourts/
In northern Arizona, north of Flagstaff, in the land of the Ancestral Puebloan people(Ancestral Puebloan has replaced the Navajo term "Anasazi" to describe this culture), lies Wupatki National Monument. A wonderful landscape with extinct volcanos and numerous Ancestral Puebloan ruins. Well worth a visit when in Az. Some Hopi clans are able to include Wupatki as an area in which they dwelt for a time during their great migration cycle before the clans settled on the Hopi mesas. The Wupatki Pueblo itself includes the furthest north, in the United States, of any Mesoamerican style ballcourt:
https://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/you-contribute/mesoamerica-and-the-north-american-southwest
I think, of all the Southwest cultures, perhaps the ancient Hohokam of the Phoenix to Tucson region, reflect more connections, via trade and world view, with the high cultures to their south. One cultural feature of Hohokam culture in particular, ballcourts, may have been derived from the ballcourt games played by those Mesoamerican cultures:
https://www.archaeologicalconservancy.org/the-mystery-of-hohokam-ballcourts/
In northern Arizona, north of Flagstaff, in the land of the Ancestral Puebloan people(Ancestral Puebloan has replaced the Navajo term "Anasazi" to describe this culture), lies Wupatki National Monument. A wonderful landscape with extinct volcanos and numerous Ancestral Puebloan ruins. Well worth a visit when in Az. Some Hopi clans are able to include Wupatki as an area in which they dwelt for a time during their great migration cycle before the clans settled on the Hopi mesas. The Wupatki Pueblo itself includes the furthest north, in the United States, of any Mesoamerican style ballcourt:
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joshuaream
Silver Member
The crotal bells were cast, and some hoe money were heated/annealed copper. Some of the very rare Aztec gold was made by the lost wax process, and silver was mined and used. The reality is that the Aztecs were basically Washington DC, they didn’t produce anything, they taxed resources, they controlled a military made up of very few people from the capital.
IMAUDIGGER
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300 years seems like a very short amount of time.
The Native Americans of Northern California believed that they all came from the north.
With groups splitting off along the way. Some continued south.
I would bet there were some words common to all of the various tribal languages.
The Native Americans of Northern California believed that they all came from the north.
With groups splitting off along the way. Some continued south.
I would bet there were some words common to all of the various tribal languages.
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BillA
Bronze Member
Am familiar with the copper from the Keweenaw,
where did 'native Americans' (as we like to refer to them) first smelt copper ore ? silver ore ?
Is smelting to be considered also as casting (open mold) ?
I am not aware that NAs did smelting, nor casting.
Is this correct ?
where did 'native Americans' (as we like to refer to them) first smelt copper ore ? silver ore ?
Is smelting to be considered also as casting (open mold) ?
I am not aware that NAs did smelting, nor casting.
Is this correct ?
joshuaream
Silver Member
Charl,
Great observations. Mesoamerican ball courts are different but somewhat similar in pomp, ceremony and importance to lacross with groups in the Northeast and Chunkey (discoidals) from the Mississippian groups in the Midwest and the Southeast.
Great observations. Mesoamerican ball courts are different but somewhat similar in pomp, ceremony and importance to lacross with groups in the Northeast and Chunkey (discoidals) from the Mississippian groups in the Midwest and the Southeast.
BillA
Bronze Member
Charl, do you know the basis for the reconstruction shown in the photo with stone and mortar ?
promote tourism ? (seems unique for N. America)
georgia flatlander
Full Member
I think everyone is confusing Aztec with other South/Central American groups. Aztecs and Mayans are always referred to due to their familiarity, but neither was the largest nor the longest-lived group.
If mass migration is the underlying theory of the populating of North America, first across the Bering Strait and then southward and eastward, what would stop a group from leaving South/Central America for undiscovered parts of what is now the U.S.? I would venture to guess that this happened frequently, and undoubtedly semblances of their culture would have accompanied them, because this was all they knew at the time. Either establishing new settlements or assimilating into existing settlements would probably also yield some sort of evidence, just as the Spanish influence was evident here (although theirs was done more by force and eradication).
Further, the physical landscape has changed tremendously over the past 10,000 years, and while there are some historical records depicting the actions of some Central American groups, what was undoubtedly lost will always be the missing link. For example, the coastline of the Gulf of Mexico, particularly in the Big Bend area (Apalachicola to Cedar Key), was 100 miles seaward. Recently, a 7,000 year old Archaic burial site was discovered off the coast, and I have personally witnessed tree stumps located in 40 feet of water, nearly 15 miles south of Dog Island, Florida. To theorize that there is a large number of undiscovered sites that are currently underwater is not a stretch.
As far as mound and effigy similarities, Cahokia is a great example, and so is the Letchworth Mound in Jefferson County, Florida.
Archaeologists may speculate, but few have been outspoken about the connection between the cultures of South/Central America and North America. Much of their research is built from previous assumptions or theories, and when those are challenged, the old guard comes out of the woodwork to defend their turf rather than admit they may have been wrong. The newer generation of archaeologists seem to have a more open mindset, so maybe we'll see some new studies emerge.
This is a depiction of the large mound at Letchworth, and to the layperson it resembles the architecture of South/Central America:
If mass migration is the underlying theory of the populating of North America, first across the Bering Strait and then southward and eastward, what would stop a group from leaving South/Central America for undiscovered parts of what is now the U.S.? I would venture to guess that this happened frequently, and undoubtedly semblances of their culture would have accompanied them, because this was all they knew at the time. Either establishing new settlements or assimilating into existing settlements would probably also yield some sort of evidence, just as the Spanish influence was evident here (although theirs was done more by force and eradication).
Further, the physical landscape has changed tremendously over the past 10,000 years, and while there are some historical records depicting the actions of some Central American groups, what was undoubtedly lost will always be the missing link. For example, the coastline of the Gulf of Mexico, particularly in the Big Bend area (Apalachicola to Cedar Key), was 100 miles seaward. Recently, a 7,000 year old Archaic burial site was discovered off the coast, and I have personally witnessed tree stumps located in 40 feet of water, nearly 15 miles south of Dog Island, Florida. To theorize that there is a large number of undiscovered sites that are currently underwater is not a stretch.
As far as mound and effigy similarities, Cahokia is a great example, and so is the Letchworth Mound in Jefferson County, Florida.
Archaeologists may speculate, but few have been outspoken about the connection between the cultures of South/Central America and North America. Much of their research is built from previous assumptions or theories, and when those are challenged, the old guard comes out of the woodwork to defend their turf rather than admit they may have been wrong. The newer generation of archaeologists seem to have a more open mindset, so maybe we'll see some new studies emerge.
This is a depiction of the large mound at Letchworth, and to the layperson it resembles the architecture of South/Central America:
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BillA
Bronze Member
an advantage of looking at metalworking and the related technologies
one has a technological snapshot at a point in time
the blah blah symbolism is irrevelant to the technical assessment
one has a technological snapshot at a point in time
the blah blah symbolism is irrevelant to the technical assessment
Charl
Silver Member
The three photos at this link take you from excavation of the ballcourt to finished restoration. As the first photo shows, during the excavation, the ballcourt was substantially intact to begin with. I can't speak to the mortar, but I can only imagine it helps with stabilization. Bottom line, they did not restore the ballcourt in an overly imaginative way. The style seen today is the style at the time Wupatki was a living pueblo, and the feature was already still intact....
https://www.loc.gov/resource/hhh.az0263.photos?st=gallery
BillA
Bronze Member
the first 2 do not correspond with the last (my opinion), why the need to make pretty?
stacked flat rocks at a steep angle were good enough for them, . . . .
stacked flat rocks at a steep angle were good enough for them, . . . .
IMAUDIGGER
Silver Member
- Mar 16, 2016
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These games were very important to the people as I understand it.
The stones may have been chinked with mud originally.
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