Authentic Quartz Effigy?

[OntarioArch]

I'm skeptical to say the least. No peck marks. No patina, at all. How do you peck and grind those nostril holes? Opinions welcomed.

 

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[Tdog]

I can understand your skepticism. Authentic quartz artifacts (banner stones in particular) have shown up and the same questions have surfaced. I would guess the unaltered piece had features that lent itself to be worked and fashioned easier than a plain , flat, biscuit shaped piece. Just my $.02.

 

[newnan man]

Looks odd. What's the history behind it?

 

[OntarioArch]

Looks odd. What's the history behind it?

A 'well known collector' found it, sold it to present owner in Hudson Valley area of NY. I think TDog hit it when he mentioned the 'unaltered piece' having certain 'features'. After looking at it for awhile, it looks to me like the only altered areas are the nostrils and the inner mouth/oval. The rest of the stone is natural. How else would you account for the surface of that rock? Now, whether or not it is old, and how old, is a question.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Looks modern made. Better pictures would help, when blown up nostril holes do not look old. As you said to, no peck marks, no patina either.

 

[Relicgrubber]

This is a real NA artifact according to the guy who made it... (SIC)

 

[Riverbum]

To find a stone with a face etched into it would be really exciting to me. Around here and south into TEXAS I find things called "Pathos" usually a diamond/triangle shaped piece of obsidian not very large at all but I understand Native Americans used to carry them around for "good luck" or something of that nature. They sometimes look like they've been Polished but that the Obsidian look to begin with. Thats a GOOD FIND there even if you didn't find it!

 

[Fat]

This is a real NA artifact according to the guy who made it... (SIC)
View attachment 2003357

... this reminds me of an outer space pilot, was it found in N Mexico’s Area 51?

 

[Relicgrubber]

... this reminds me of an outer space pilot, was it found in N Mexico’s Area 51?

Its a picture I saved a long time ago...

 

[OntarioArch]

Owner says it's "carved marble." that's a new one for me.
Any such thing?

 

[Fat]

To find a stone with a face etched into it would be really exciting to me. Around here and south into TEXAS I find things called "Pathos" usually a diamond/triangle shaped piece of obsidian not very large at all but I understand Native Americans used to carry them around for "good luck" or something of that nature. They sometimes look like they've been Polished but that the Obsidian look to begin with. Thats a GOOD FIND there even if you didn't find it!

... that is new term to me. Please make a new post about with lots of pics...

 

[Tesorodeoro]

It’s interesting that some things like artifacts ..art with facial features just are not found, even though we know they have the knowledge and skill to create these things. I read an interesting thing recently that some of the tribes in N. Cal had laws regarding the speaking of a name of someone that had passed or speaking of what someone had done that had passed. It was strictly not allowed. The punishment was DEATH. Great way to squash history. Of course this is just what was told during interviews with tribal members of all the surrounding tribes so take it with a grain of rice. Likely other tribes felt it was disrespectful or there was superstition associated.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

This is a real NA artifact according to the guy who made it... (SIC)
View attachment 2003357

Paul?

 

[iliveinahole]

It’s interesting that some things like artifacts ..art with facial features just are not found, even though we know they have the knowledge and skill to create these things. I read an interesting thing recently that some of the tribes in N. Cal had laws regarding the speaking of a name of someone that had passed or speaking of what someone had done that had passed. It was strictly not allowed. The punishment was DEATH. Great way to squash history. Of course this is just what was told during interviews with tribal members of all the surrounding tribes so take it with a grain of rice. Likely other tribes felt it was disrespectful or there was superstition associated.

Have friends out on the Umatilla indian reservation and they definitely aren't allowed to speak their name or talk about memories that involve the deceased. They also aren't allowed to cry or mourn for a given time.
I was told by the natives that the reason was because the deceased spirit might not want to leave and would end up stuck on Earth forever.

 

[OntarioArch]

... that is new term to me. Please make a new post about with lots of pics...

No more pics available.....owner has a case of the a__ because I questioned its authenticity. I think of A post from one of our regulars, months ago , about collectors whose admiration of their fakes used to bother him, but he has now resigned himself to that situation. Wish he would restate his feelings expressed....because I'm getting to that point.

 

[Tesorodeoro]

Have friends out on the Umatilla indian reservation and they definitely aren't allowed to speak their name or talk about memories that involve the deceased. They also aren't allowed to cry or mourn for a given time.
I was told by the natives that the reason was because the deceased spirit might not want to leave and would end up stuck on Earth forever.

The stuff I’ve read about early contact period people is that they were VERY superstitious. It seems to be a cultural thing that is passed down each generation.,not like Santa Clause, but that’s the reason uncle Joe got bucked off his horse and broke his leg and that will happen to you if your not careful type of thing.

 

[Charl]

Here’s an example of a natural cobble slightly modified. Doesn’t look like the rock itself was altered otherwise…

 

[newnan man]

Looks like that face on Mars.

 

[Aurora1959]

Don't like those nostrils one bit, assuming it's supposed to be Iroquois.

 

[OntarioArch]

Paul Frey settled this on another discussion board, at least for me:
"…This was recently the subject on a FB post in an artifact forum. I don't know who owns it for sure, but the author of the post is convinced this is ancient, and anything I might add, would probably lead to an argument, or at least a negative debate. The piece actually looks like marble, a lithic not used in making these. ( but could be quartz ). I am very skeptical this is ancient due to the typology. The features are just out of form. The flaring nose with nostrils, the high relief mouth, no distinct undercuts for the eyes, etc. Although there are exceptions, I would have to handle this piece, but I don't think it's ancient or Native made.


I read the entire FB post, and folks are mistaken on a lot of what is being said. One, there's a matter of pecking marks. Some see them, some don't. These were not pecked to shape from the beginning. The reason I know is I have several stages of preforms. They are cut to a rough shape, ground, and then polished. The features are incised, not pecked. Two, these did not lead to the False Face Society masks, and this piece doesn't exhibit any features of a False Face. . That's a complete different entity of a different time, and cultural meaning. Three, the person who found it said it has GREAT patina! However, other people have examined it, and said it has very little to no patina! Now which is it?! So much controversy. So much being said, everyone is just trying to justify this piece is ancient, even by comparing the surface treatment to quartz birdstones. Even if the one person did physically find it, we don't know the circumstances. Was it made to be found? Is it actually a much later replica, and someone tossed it or lost it? I saw no where that is was mentioned it was actually found in context with other artifacts on a known historic site. In my opinion, I am very skeptical, but I would reserve a conclusive opinion until I might have a chance to examine it. The tool marks, patination, everything has to be correct.

And…

My opinion would be this. If this piece has any antiquity to it, it wouldn't be older than about 1675. More likely 1700s. It is not a style made by the NY Indians, Seneca, Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Delaware, etc. It has nothing to do with the False Face masks, In the FB post, there are three pottery heads. Those are Mexican and those are old. They have more resemblance to this piece than any of the actual maskettes made by NY Indians. If it's quartz, an enlargement shows that it's sugar quartz. A very crystalline type quartz, that would shatter if pecked. And should have a lot of spider webbing frost fractures on the surface. Not 100%, but about 95% it's not extremely old or Native"