Atlantis

[Cynangyl]

bah! I know how to swim, don't know how to dive!

 

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[Oroblanco]

Don Real de Tayopa wrote:

p.s Just think, you have particpated in the rediscovery of Atlantis, Join me?

HOLA mi amigo, and I hate to be the proverbial wet blanket here (seems I find myself in this position way too much recently) BUT...........perhaps it is not quite to the moment where our pants should go flying, at least not just yet?

The site delineated on the map actually covers a pretty large area, like the size of Spain, roughly. It would be possible to do a fair amount of searching without really covering much, percentage-wise. Then there is the rather troubling minor detail about the depth - for much of that region is quite deep, much more than you could dive under normal circumstances (I am no diver, but as I understand it, about 200 feet is the normal limit, some have gone to double this however) so a hard-suit might be necessary to reach bottom, or for much of the area a very deep-diving submersible, capable of reaching depths of 10,000 feet. Plus we have this statement by Plato, which certainly suggests that the depth of water covering the islands is not great:
(Putting the words of Plato in PURPLE and bold for ease of reading and separating from my own)

Atlantis, which, as was saying, was an island greater in extent than Libya and Asia, and when afterwards sunk by an earthquake, became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to any part of the ocean. (from Critias by Plato)

The great depth of much of the area is my main stumbling block for this spot as the location of the main island of Atlantis, though I have another difficulty as well. I do not wish to be 'correcting' you amigo, for I do respect your abilities in researching history, but there is a description in Plato that will not fit with an area quite like that. The statements about Atlantis being "greater in extent that Libya and Asia (which to Plato was far less territory than those actual continents are) we can ignore or consider to be a description of the whole of the empire and not the actual island because Plato provides a description of the island which does not fit with being "greater in extent that Libya and Asia" combined. Here are the relevant statements, describing the main island of Atlantis, (that owned by Poseidon and ruled by Atlas etc)

Looking towards the sea, but in the centre of the whole island, there was a plain which is said to have been the fairest of all plains and very fertile. Near the plain again, and also in the centre of the island at a distance of about fifty stadia, there was a mountain not very high on any side.
{ibid}

So the island should have a plain near the center, also a hill that was not particularly high;

He himself, being a god, found no difficulty in making special arrangements for the centre island, bringing up two springs of water from beneath the earth, one of warm water and the other of cold, and making every variety of food to spring up abundantly from the soil. {ibid}

The island should have natural springs of both hot and cold water, at least one of each;

In the first place, they dug out of the earth whatever was to be found there, solid as well as fusile, and that which is now only a name and was then something more than a name, orichalcum, was dug out of the earth in many parts of the island, being more precious in those days than anything except gold. There was an abundance of wood for carpenter's work, and sufficient maintenance for tame and wild animals. Moreover, there were a great number of elephants in the island; for as there was provision for all other sorts of animals, both for those which live in lakes and marshes and rivers, and also for those which live in mountains and on plains, so there was for the animal which is the largest and most voracious of all. Also whatever fragrant things there now are in the earth, whether roots, or herbage, or woods, or essences which distil from fruit and flower, grew and thrived in that land; also the fruit which admits of cultivation, both the dry sort, which is given us for nourishment and any other which we use for food-we call them all by the common name pulse, and the fruits having a hard rind, affording drinks and meats and ointments, and good store of chestnuts and the like, which furnish pleasure and amusement, and are fruits which spoil with keeping, and the pleasant kinds of dessert, with which we console ourselves after dinner, when we are tired of eating-all these that sacred island which then beheld the light of the sun, brought forth fair and wondrous and in infinite abundance. With such blessings the earth freely furnished them; meanwhile they went on constructing their temples and palaces and harbours and docks. {ibid}

I would point out here three things - for one, this island had elephants; second it had deposits of the natural alloy Orichalcum, unknown in the world today except for a single locality, and third something which Plato makes no mention of specifically, though he may have assumed the Atlanteans to have it - IRON.

First of all they bridged over the zones of sea which surrounded the ancient metropolis, making a road to and from the royal palace. And at the very beginning they built the palace in the habitation of the god and of their ancestors, which they continued to ornament in successive generations, every king surpassing the one who went before him to the utmost of his power, until they made the building a marvel to behold for size and for beauty. And beginning from the sea they bored a canal of three hundred feet in width and one hundred feet in depth and fifty stadia in length, which they carried through to the outermost zone, making a passage from the sea up to this, which became a harbour, and leaving an opening sufficient to enable the largest vessels to find ingress. Moreover, they divided at the bridges the zones of land which parted the zones of sea, leaving room for a single trireme to pass out of one zone into another, and they covered over the channels so as to leave a way underneath for the ships; for the banks were raised considerably above the water. Now the largest of the zones into which a passage was cut from the sea was three stadia in breadth, and the zone of land which came next of equal breadth; but the next two zones, the one of water, the other of land, were two stadia, and the one which surrounded the central island was a stadium only in width. The island in which the palace was situated had a diameter of five stadia. All this including the zones and the bridge, which was the sixth part of a stadium in width, they surrounded by a stone wall on every side, placing towers and gates on the bridges where the sea passed in. The stone which was used in the work they quarried from underneath the centre island, and from underneath the zones, on the outer as well as the inner side. One kind was white, another black, and a third red, and as they quarried, they at the same time hollowed out double docks, having roofs formed out of the native rock. Some of their buildings were simple, but in others they put together different stones, varying the colour to please the eye, and to be a natural source of delight. The entire circuit of the wall, which went round the outermost zone, they covered with a coating of brass, and the circuit of the next wall they coated with tin, and the third, which encompassed the citadel, flashed with the red light of orichalcum.
{ibid}

I will propose here that the description of the rings of land, canals etc are possibly ideas "borrowed" from the Minoans by Plato, to enrich the ancient tale, and he may have assumed the Atlanteans to have had such marvels of technology at least equal to the Minoans. Now for the actual description of the island itself:

The whole country was said by him to be very lofty and precipitous on the side of the sea, but the country immediately about and surrounding the city was a level plain, itself surrounded by mountains which descended towards the sea; it was smooth and even, and of an oblong shape, extending in one direction three thousand stadia, but across the centre inland it was two thousand stadia. This part of the island looked towards the south, and was sheltered from the north. The surrounding mountains were celebrated for their number and size and beauty, far beyond any which still exist, having in them also many wealthy villages of country folk, and rivers, and lakes, and meadows supplying food enough for every animal, wild or tame, and much wood of various sorts, abundant for each and every kind of work.
{ibid}

The island should have steep decline to the sea, with the level plain and surrounding mountains, but is not of a circular shape but OBLONG, in one direction being three thousand stadia - a Greek stadia is exactly 607.5 English standard feet or just over 345 miles, while across the middle the measure is 2000 stadia or just over 230 miles. This would give us an island of roughly 79,350 square miles using only these two figures, but we have more information to work with:

As to the population, each of the lots in the plain had to find a leader for the men who were fit for military service, and the size of a lot was a square of ten stadia each way, and the total number of all the lots was sixty thousand.

This gives us a measure of the actual size of the island, based on the land allotments! 60,000 lots, each ten stadia square, would equate to 79,428 square miles. Just slightly larger than our rough guess based on the length and width dimensions.

So a person looking for Atlantis, using Plato's descriptions, ought to be looking for a submerged island that is not deeply covered in water of something less than 80,000 square miles or thereabouts.

That does not preclude anyone from going diving, but I would suggest that you go prepared for DEEP water in that particular region circled on Don Real de Tayopa's map. Of course if we can show that there was a massive subsidence, then the great depth of water is not a problem for identifying Atlantis, though it remains a rather difficult problem for diving.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA Brett,

Why hold off on joining in the fray? The worst thing that could result is a few frazzled hairs, strained friendships or even a few bruises - of the 'ego'! I am kidding of course amigo, and glad you joined us!

You have brought up one of the great "what if' books of the ancient world, it is referred to in one of the Indiana Jones movies (I think)<correction, just checked and it is in a GAME no movie> - here is what Wiki has to say: Plato originally might have planned a third dialogue named Hermocrates, but never wrote it. "Since the dialogue that was to bear his name was never written, we can only guess why Plato chose him. It is curious to reflect that, while Critias is to recount how the prehistoric Athens of nine thousand years ago had repelled the invasion from Atlantis and saved the Mediterranean peoples from slavery, Hermocrates would be remembered by the Athenians as the man who had repulsed their own greatest effort at imperialist expansion."

It is possible that Plato did write Hermocrates though, considering how many volumes were lost in the various fires at the library of Alexandria who knows what was lost forever?

If you are looking for more details on Atlantis there are other ancient sources - Diodorus Siculus as mentioned earlier or Aelian (Varia Historia) for starters.

Thanks for joining in amigo, and I hope others will follow your lead.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

OHIO : food for thought Yellow are the two Island rings, blue are the three water rings, There are two land rings and 3 water rings. There are three entrances, The major one is in the north western sector.

There is a slight distorsion, which may be caused by the angle of view and natural changes as it settled over the 1000's of years. while it may have been shallow, "long before Plato wrote about it", it has since continued to subside to it's present extremely deep position.

So we are looking at an island surrounded by two rings of islands separatrd by three rings of water of a size which may approach Spain in size. WE HAV E IT.

Admittedly it isn't the idealistic island shown by Brett, but then time has changed it as it has us. ©@

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Brett wrote:

At the southern end of the continent, the kings built a city of magnificence <snip>

I just want to ask why you would consider Atlantis to be a continent, when Plato provides the dimensions of the island (345 miles by 230) and gives the land area of the island as well (60,000 lots, each ten stadia square, would equate to 79,428 square miles) and this would hardly be described as a continent when the smallest continent above water today is just under 3 million square miles (Australia) - even counting the submerged continent Zeelandia it is still much larger - 1,351,350 square miles. Are you referring to the statement about Atlantis being "greater in extent" than Libya and Asia? Libya (Africa) was thought by the Greeks to be a fraction of its actual size - less than one eighth; Asia to them was Asia Minor and the Levant, with no real understanding of the size of the lands stretching off to the east. (Not until the time of Alexander did they discover just how large.) Plus if you read it in the original Greek it can mean a slightly different thing, which is to say that Plato could mean the empire of Atlantis was greater, not specifically the island - especially considering the actual description is provided further on. If you have reason to consider Atlantis to be a continent instead of merely a good sized island, I do try to keep an open mind so would appreciate if you would enlighten me?

Aristotle doubted the story of Plato, but Aristotle was very much a peripheral student of Plato. He could not afford the tuition to attend directly so followed Plato when the group would wander about. Plato called him the "colt" - referring to the habit of colts to drink their mother's milk, and when finished to turn and kick their own mother.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS - Real de Tayopa wrote:

So we are looking at an island surrounded by two rings of islands separatrd by three rings of water of a size which may approach Spain in size. WE HAV E IT.

The area of Spain is 195,364 sq. miles amigo, how do we reconcile this size with what Plato tells us - less than 80,000 sq. miles? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

I get where you are coming from amigo - just thought if there were a good reason to consider it a continent rather than an island, I would like to hear it. As it is, the academics are divided on what defines a "continent" anyway, with one definition being dependent on the density of the rock! By another definition, Australia and New Guinea are one "continent" even though they are not connected, while Europe, Asia and Africa really are all one land mass; if one starts dividing up "continents" using mountain ranges, rivers etc then India is a separate continent as is the Arabian peninsula and so on. Just want to point out that I am not locked with the concept of Atlantis as an island, keeping the door open at least a little to the possibility it could be a continent even technically.

I see nothing wrong with comic books, nor with fiction (if it is good fiction) and it is all-too-true that you can write up a truth as fiction when you would not dare write it up as fact! Just my opinion but I do not buy the ten-fold error that some have proposed with Plato or actually with Solon, not when you consider the whole text. By this proposed error, Plato's description of the main island of Atlantis would be just 34 miles by 23 - or less than 800 square miles! (About one 40th of the size of Ireland!) Does that make sense? Then think about the number of lots in Atlantis, make them one-tenth the size (one stadia square) and one-tenth the total number (6000) and this will not work out - it makes the total land area of the island 77.47 square miles, and this does not reconcile with the size we should get having an island even 34.5 miles by 23 miles, which is 793.5. What do you think about the ten-fold error idea?
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Well Plato did say that each one of those lots was responsible for providing ONE chariot, <CORRECTION> the text says one-sixth, which makes this calculation one 60th, only slightly more ridiculous) the horses and men - so how can we reconcile this into a ten-fold error? Do we say that each lot was responsible for one TENTH of a chariot? To me (and just my opinion) this is non-sensical, in fact the whole ten-fold error is non-sensical, but highly useful for those who propose the Minoans as the Atlantians. The idea just won't hold up though once you carry it through the whole description.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA mi amigo,

Knossos was the (presumed) capital of the Minoan empire, which is fascinating in its own right. Orichalcum is a subject that got me my credentials as a full-fledged Curmudgeon (someone who writes to Webster's to correct them!) as there are several definitions of it. The LATER definition is simply brass, which is an alloy of copper and tin (modern "brass" made with zinc is not true brass) and this is what you will find in many reference books. The ancient Greek name is Orekalkum, and is a natural alloy of gold and copper - with several different references in disagreement about the other minor metals present; some hold that it is simply gold and copper, ("Tumbago" as it is known in S. America) or gold, copper and a small amount of arsenic, or gold, copper and tin, and of course gold, copper, silver and tin with the silver and tin in very small amounts relatively speaking. Here is an axe head found at Tiahuanaco (Tiawanaku) that is said to be made of orichalcum:

a problem with the gold-copper-antimony formula is that it can come out looking very much like gold, or looking quite like copper (more RED) as you can see in this photo, left vs right

Anyway there really is or WAS such a thing as Orichalcum. Plato certainly did not invent this either, it is mentioned by the poet Hesiod who lived hundreds of years before Plato, almost a contemporary with Homer. (Just mentioning this for our skeptics who insist that Plato "invented" Atlantis, which is false.) I would like to toss in something which might appear to be un-related, that the ancient Hebrew historian Josephus, wrote that the vessels adorning the Temple of Solomon were made of orichalcum......do we see a connection?
Oroblanco

 

[Highmountain]

HOLA mi amigo,

Knossos was the (presumed) capital of the Minoan empire, which is fascinating in its own right. Orichalcum is a subject that got me my credentials as a full-fledged Curmudgeon (someone who writes to Webster's to correct them!) as there are several definitions of it. The LATER definition is simply brass, which is an alloy of copper and tin (modern "brass" made with zinc is not true brass) and this is what you will find in many reference books. The ancient Greek name is Orekalkum, and is a natural alloy of gold and copper - with several different references in disagreement about the other minor metals present; some hold that it is simply gold and copper, ("Tumbago" as it is known in S. America) or gold, copper and a small amount of arsenic, or gold, copper and tin, and of course gold, copper, silver and tin with the silver and tin in very small amounts relatively speaking. Here is an axe head found at Tiahuanaco (Tiawanaku) that is said to be made of orichalcum:

a problem with the gold-copper-antimony formula is that it can come out looking very much like gold, or looking quite like copper (more RED) as you can see in this photo, left vs right

Anyway there really is or WAS such a thing as Orichalcum. Plato certainly did not invent this either, it is mentioned by the poet Hesiod who lived hundreds of years before Plato, almost a contemporary with Homer. (Just mentioning this for our skeptics who insist that Plato "invented" Atlantis, which is false.) I would like to toss in something which might appear to be un-related, that the ancient Hebrew historian Josephus, wrote that the vessels adorning the Temple of Solomon were made of orichalcum......do we see a connection?
Oroblanco

Really interesting info there. It's off-topic, but do you happen to know the percentage of copper the Aztec used to alloy with their gold? Was their processed gold of a more reddish tint, or the purer, yellower sort?

Thanks,
Jack

 

[Oroblanco]

I do not know the alloy ratios used by the Aztecs, my impression was that they used gold rather more pure than alloyed though right? I welcome any corrections - cannot access my own books so have to ask your indulgence in this fact-checking. Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[Highmountain]

I do not know the alloy ratios used by the Aztecs, my impression was that they used gold rather more pure than alloyed though right? I welcome any corrections - cannot access my own books so have to ask your indulgence in this fact-checking. Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

I gather they had 'high quality' gold by Spanish estimations. But I thought you might know of some alloying they did. Just wondering whether any Aztec gold known anywhere had a red, coppery tint. I had a reason for asking that's unrelated to the topic, so I apologize.

Thanks.
Jack

 

[Oroblanco]

No apologies needed Jack - I don't think the thread-owner is being too strict about sticking with the topic. Besides the Aztec gold connection is not really un-related is it? I am sure I read about Aztecs doing some metallurgy and alloying, will see what I can find online. Do you have a membership with JSTOR? I do not, and have been frustrated numerous times by the scientific papers they have, available only to members.
Oroblanco

 

[Highmountain]

No apologies needed Jack - I don't think the thread-owner is being too strict about sticking with the topic. Besides the Aztec gold connection is not really un-related is it? I am sure I read about Aztecs doing some metallurgy and alloying, will see what I can find online. Do you have a membership with JSTOR? I do not, and have been frustrated numerous times by the scientific papers they have, available only to members.
Oroblanco

Thanks Oro. I don't have a JSTOR membership either. Wish I did.

Gracias,
Jack

 

[Oroblanco]

Here is the little bit at About.com:
Metallurgy: Two bronzes, one of combined copper and tin, and one of copper arsenic; cast bells, rings and tweezers; some gold and silver. Much was imported from west Mesoamerican mines and metalworkers; craft work in Tenochtitlan included hammering, filigree and lost wax methods.

I was un-aware they had successfully made bronze, which is surprising.
Oroblanco

 

[Highmountain]

Here is the little bit at About.com:
Metallurgy: Two bronzes, one of combined copper and tin, and one of copper arsenic; cast bells, rings and tweezers; some gold and silver. Much was imported from west Mesoamerican mines and metalworkers; craft work in Tenochtitlan included hammering, filigree and lost wax methods.

I was un-aware they had successfully made bronze, which is surprising.
Oroblanco

Thanks a bunch. That bronze is indeed a surprise, along with the lost wax.

Gracias,
Jack

 

[Old Dog]

The lost wax is a long prosess and the fact that the Aztec had it is news to me as well.

Thanks Roy,
Thom

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

ORO: you posted -->

The area of Spain is 195,364 sq. miles amigo, how do we reconcile this size with what Plato tells us - less than 80,000 sq. miles? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Obviously he was referring to the outter islands for total size. the inner Island fits his description.

Incidentally don't get too technical on general measurements, this has foiled many a seeker after legends, mines, or treasures in the past. Plato for example, was merely repeating data & stories that he in turn had heard which in themsleves were also verbal stories of ancient origin.

I presume that you noticed that Atlantis does lie west of Gibralter as specified, no? And also that it is aprox. the distance from it as required by the stories.

Actually, since thtey went by dead reckoning with very very primitive instruments and calculations, it is remarkable how close they are.

I will post a bit on data on Tayopa in which the distances to the various mines was given, but impossible ot use until you cracked the simple code.©@

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. I would tend to equate Atlantis to modern Greece, Greece is composed of many islands.

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA mi amigo Don Real de Tayopa,

The "many islands" idea actually fits with the overall description agreed, as Aelian recorded it (as coming from Theopompos) was a group of ten islands, not a single island and this is echoed in Plato where he uses the plural "islands" in saying you could sail to them and from them beyond to the opposite side of the Atlantic. (Not referring to the land of Meropes, which is a rather garbled account of the Americas but what can we expect from 2nd century AD Roman times, which as the Roman author Pliny the elder wrote, the art of navigation and geographical knowledge had greatly diminished from earlier times.)

So thank you for clarifying your statements, you are depicting a region including the whole group (or most of it?) and not a SINGLE massive island the size of Espana. Viewed in this light, there appears to be no problems aside from the extreme depth of water in many areas there, which would not set well with Plato's statement about the sea there being "shallow and muddy" because the island had sunk beneath the sea.

What about the idea of Bolivia as Atlantis? This theory has many adherents and at least some evidence that will fit, like having a plain that will fit the description (the Altiplano) and a very ancient civilization, that had and used a metal that some claim is none other than Orichalcum.

Brett wrote:

I might as well forget about Atlantis. Its too much to research and who knows what happened.

I am sorry to see you give up on the quest amigo, though you are correct there is a great deal of research needed. I think you will be losing something by giving up, there is something to be said for the quest itself; and that old saying is true - "nothing worthwhile comes easily". You may never find enough evidence to seal the case before a jury of historians, but you might find enough to satisfy yourself as to what the truth is. If you limit your quests to those things which are easily found with little effort, what you find will usually be equal to the efforts expended, sad to say. (You get what you "pay" for, one way or the other! )

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Allo ORO, you posted -->

aside from the extreme depth of water in many areas there, which would not set well with Plato's statement about the sea there being "shallow and muddy" because the island had sunk beneath the sea.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I suppose that it may have been originally, but after some thousands of years, sitting on the apex an extremely unstable section of the Earth, who knows when it finally sank to it's present depth. Also, for this same reason, it can be pushed to the surface again.

The remark that it was a shallow, muddy area doesn't jive logically.. The actual island of Atlantis was surrounded by HIGH mountainous Islands, many survivors would have remained and rebuilt Atlantis. Since this didn't happen, one can only assume that an extremely violent submergence of all of the islands took place.simultaneously, possibly to it's present depth, leaving no survivors which more easily can be accepted.

I would suggest check stories of Tsunamis, earthquakes, etc., from that time to the present in that area.

K, you now know exactly where Atlantis is, simple isn't it ? hehehh So what are we going to do about it?

Another dim legend of the past coming to life again, how many others remain Scubasalvor?

Don Jose de La Mancha