Atalatal--what are you? Let us define it.

[stryker-one]

I was reading a post earlier and got a topic idea. Can we define Atalatal and get some accepted definitions and history of this shaft launching device--I really would like to know a time line that is accepted by the scholars that explains when the Atalatal was used and when the bow and arrow started to make it's appearence in the Americas. I have no real idea.

I think there are learned people here that have studied this and can educate us (me) on this. I usually do not use the term Arrowhead when I am talking about knapped projectile points--because I am not sure if what I am talking about is an Atalatal point or a lance point, or a knife. I can pretty much decide if I have some flakes or a knapped scrapper.

I just think it would be good for me to hear some discussion--and see some examples of what the archeology profession has determined when Atalatal points evolved into real arrowheads.

Come on Cannon, Adena Man, and Matt I thing you guys know enough to put forth some opinions--and no unfair, ah discussing .

Please!!

Stryker

 

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[stryker-one]

That is outstanding information. I just wonder how it was that the information ("check out my toss away points")--(I got some pine tar glue that holds through the thickest rain") was passed from group to group--I know this is out of the scope of this topic.

It just makes me more aware that the more questions one gets answered the more questions become exposed. Ah ain't "learnin" great

Cannon you are a fountain of information.

Thank you for sharing.

Stryker

 

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[JimBeHuntin']

Interesting topic ... I've enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on the subject ~ Jimmy

 

[Abbey]

Hey- Thanks, Cannonman. I really appreciate the time you're spending explaining things so well. I get it--finally. Any thoughts on the arguement that bannerstones were primarily for burial purposes, and not really that much of an advantage in use? I don't know enough to have an opinion. BTW, the bannerstone slid onto the lever, right? I figure they all go together, so I'm not sliding off course on this thread.
Thanks again-
Abbey

 

[thompy]

great topic guys,very intresting

 

[Neanderthal]

My little drawing there isn't of the entire atl atl... just the shaft, not the lever. I believe the contracting stems were used in what really amounted to a modified version of the first type. See how in the first type there isn't any socket and the point is tied right to it? Well they found that by creating the socket they could save most of the spear shaft and many hours of work and switched to type two... and this is the point in history when points get smaller again in spite of the fact that the bow and arrow hasn't been invented yet and this is also why some have argued for many years that the bow and arrow was invented before what most think it was... anyways.. the third evolution was with the contracting stem which would fall out or stay in upon impact.. it was used I believe on a type one, put right into the main shaft, and when used only the point would stay in- this of course again saved many hours of work by allowing the hunter to more often than not retrieve his spear shaft if not the game itself.. and this third evolution also saved the time required to create the smaller 6-10 inch piece that fit into the socket.. now some simple pine pitch or similar natural glue would be all that would be needed... you could carry a few of these in a pouch and simply replace the point itself. This also explains the contracting stem because it, by design, is not very well made for tying it onto something tightly... all different kinds of bases are MUCH better suited at being tied on tight and not meant to come off. This also explains why many contracting stems appear to have been made by simple percussion flaking with not a lot of pressure flaking... they were expendable points, at least more so that the spears they rode on. It also explains why very few contracting stem knives are found... they don't haft very well to handles although IT CAN and WAS done.. just not real often.

The socketed part was actually the foreshaft, not the point itself. I can take a picture of some here if you wish to see some authentic aboriginal atlatl foreshafts if you'd like.
Many contracting stemmed points were used as knives. Gary (Krieger) , Adena variants, just about any stemmed type you can name has probably served function as knife. I believe the contracting stemmed points were that way for hafting purposes in a socket, but not Atlatl..the foreshaft is far too small for many of them. Remember, atlalt dart points are pretty small, often only slightly larger than a small arrow tip. Here's a tidbit, if you boil a bone (or some antler) to where it's somewhat maliable and insert a contracting stemmed point into it...you'll play hell getting it out. We've tried it. You will break the point before you even budge it in that hafting.

 

[warsawdaddy]

I saw and threww my first atalatal this past summer.Quite an experience.If anyone has vast knowledge of this the lady who has this site does.Just email her for all the info you want.

http://www.missouritrading.com/

 

[Cannonman17]

This is an interesting thread-

Neanderthal, I guess as far as the contracting stem points being removable atlatl points I will have to keep my comments more or less confined to that of the Waubesa point as it is in all the truth the only one that I find frequently around here and thus the only one I have read and studied as much about. When I mentioned them being used almost exclusively as atl atl points I didn't mean that they were being used in the type two atl atl that I drew up above but rather the type one... I'm saying that they started with that type one.. used various methods of hafting the side notched points like the Raddatz or Godar or whatever and then changed to the smaller type you mention somewhere around the late archaic/ early woodland and they started to use the socketed type two... and the archaeological record does in fact show that point types suddenly became smaller and lighter during this time period. I think that when contracting stemmed points like the Waubesa were being used a little later on in the woodland period that they went back to the thicker straight shaft type atlatls.. so the Waubesa point wouldn't have needed to be so small like that of other socketed type atlatl points. I will stand by the idea that very few contracting stems (or at least the Waubesas) were used as knives.. I draw that conclusion based on two things, on the observation that out of all the ones in my collection (thirty some from about 14 different sites in this county) only one is a knife and that statistic seems to hold very true out of all the collections I have see from central Wisconsin, which is many.
The boiling bone/antler thing that you mention I did not know, never heard of that but it is VERY interesting!!! Discoveries like that can change entire theories! I'm not ready to jump on your band wagon just yet because I believe if they were hafted in the manner described that we would find some of them in the archaeological record.. I mean bone/antler holds up pretty good compared to wood and we have found the wooden forshafts at sites, specially in the desert southwest but as far as I know we haven't found any atlatl forshafts manufactured from bone or antler- I could be completely wrong, I just don't know of any... regardless of that I think your idea is certainly very deserving of a closer look, there should be some type of scientific evidence to support that theory if it's true. I must say... that whole idea, and this thread in general, has really fired up an old passion!
As far as the comments on the bannerstones- I just don't know. There have been so many theories put forth on the subject that you could spend your whole life studying them all and when everything was said and done have little more than an educated guess. My guess or opinion is that they were in fact slipped over the shaft of the lever itself - I'm not completely understanding of how the weight helped.. got a good idea but I think that I will have to try it out this summer!! It would make an excellent experiment!!! I believe that there were some excavations done early last century sometime in the south where bannerstones were excavated in situ- while the wood was gone there was in some cases a bone hook type thing that one might expect to find on the end of an atlatl in line with the weight. I believe that this type of thing was found at more than one site.

Neanderthal- before I forget, I want to see the forshafts that you have.

Also, as a side note- if any of you have ever thought about flintknapping and making an atlatl- both can be done and I will tell you one thing is for sure- I learned so much by running around my parents yard/woods when I was in my high school days throwing home made darts at all kinds of materials... some I would just launch over and over into the dirt, some I would launch at trees, some at stone, etc... I launched them at all sorts of things and in the course of that patterns developed, patterns of wear, patterns of breakage etc. I found that the wear patterns for different materials varied quite a bit, I learned the types of shots that create impact fractures most often, it was great! I would highly encourage you all to try it at least once!

 

[Neanderthal]

This is an interesting thread-

Neanderthal, I guess as far as the contracting stem points being removable atlatl points I will have to keep my comments more or less confined to that of the Waubesa point as it is in all the truth the only one that I find frequently around here and thus the only one I have read and studied as much about. When I mentioned them being used almost exclusively as atl atl points I didn't mean that they were being used in the type two atl atl that I drew up above but rather the type one... I'm saying that they started with that type one.. used various methods of hafting the side notched points like the Raddatz or Godar or whatever and then changed to the smaller type you mention somewhere around the late archaic/ early woodland and they started to use the socketed type two... and the archaeological record does in fact show that point types suddenly became smaller and lighter during this time period. I think that when contracting stemmed points like the Waubesa were being used a little later on in the woodland period that they went back to the thicker straight shaft type atlatls.. so the Waubesa point wouldn't have needed to be so small like that of other socketed type atlatl points. I will stand by the idea that very few contracting stems (or at least the Waubesas) were used as knives.. I draw that conclusion based on two things, on the observation that out of all the ones in my collection (thirty some from about 14 different sites in this county) only one is a knife and that statistic seems to hold very true out of all the collections I have see from central Wisconsin, which is many.
The boiling bone/antler thing that you mention I did not know, never heard of that but it is VERY interesting!!! Discoveries like that can change entire theories! I'm not ready to jump on your band wagon just yet because I believe if they were hafted in the manner described that we would find some of them in the archaeological record.. I mean bone/antler holds up pretty good compared to wood and we have found the wooden forshafts at sites, specially in the desert southwest but as far as I know we haven't found any atlatl forshafts manufactured from bone or antler- I could be completely wrong, I just don't know of any... regardless of that I think your idea is certainly very deserving of a closer look, there should be some type of scientific evidence to support that theory if it's true. I must say... that whole idea, and this thread in general, has really fired up an old passion!
As far as the comments on the bannerstones- I just don't know. There have been so many theories put forth on the subject that you could spend your whole life studying them all and when everything was said and done have little more than an educated guess. My guess or opinion is that they were in fact slipped over the shaft of the lever itself - I'm not completely understanding of how the weight helped.. got a good idea but I think that I will have to try it out this summer!! It would make an excellent experiment!!! I believe that there were some excavations done early last century sometime in the south where bannerstones were excavated in situ- while the wood was gone there was in some cases a bone hook type thing that one might expect to find on the end of an atlatl in line with the weight. I believe that this type of thing was found at more than one site.

The compound Atlatl has been in use since Paleo times, with foreshaft and all. There are a few paleo sites where bone atlatl foreshafts have been found. It's now suggested that the "bone rod" found with the infamous Richey (Wenachee) site Clovis cache is most likely a foreshaft. Even from the first, smaller points have been used in Atlatl. Take the folsom point for instance, very small and perfectly suitable for a dart.

I have found many Waubesa and Dickson points over the years, making Hopewell one of my favorite cultures. I'm sure the smaller ones could have been used for dart points, but the larger ones almost always show exclusive wear and resharpening patterns consistent with knife or cutting use.

I too love archeology by experimentation and used to have more time to do it. We are in the process of doing another 'mythbusting' experiment. We (me and a friend) are trying to recreate the Calf Creek embedded in the bison skull scenario that Kim Holt found on the Arkansas River. You may have seen the episode of History's mysteries or whatever the show was called that it was on. To make a long story short - A Calf Creek was found embedded in this bison skull deeply, but until then Calf Creek was only thought to be a knife and not projectile. Our experiment should at least help with some of the details on how it could occur. My personal theory is that it wasn't a projectile at all. Yet, we are still going to try it with the Atlatl's.

Oh, below I'll attach a picture of the Atlatl dart points. These are all authentic, dry shelter finds. Length's of the shafts are around 10". Notice they are made of typical small 'dart' points. I believe two were found in NM, and 2 in AZ, and can double check later if you want. Enjoy.

 

[Cannonman17]

Interesting stuff... I wish it wasn't so hard to get good information like site reports and what not. Like you mention "There are a few paleo sites where bone atlatl foreshafts have been found. " but I'm not familiar with any of them, I don't suppose you have any cool links about them- I would love to go check it out! It's nice to have a good conversation with somebody who knows something about the subject.... sometimes I try to talk to friends about such things and they get bored QUICK. I'm not sure that the compound atlatl has been used since paleo time though, at least not by using folsom points as examples... I think that some times, if not many times, folsom points are really clovis points that have been "exhausted"... resharpened to being little more than stubs.

Also, this is interesting to me... you mention the waubesa points again and their suitability as knives- perhaps it has just been my bad luck or missinterpretation of what I'm finding but I still think that I only have one possible knife of all the ones found. If you get a chance could you please post or scan some pictures of the large type waubesa knives you have? Ever since you mentioned the boiled bone/antler thing you've had me scratching my head about it-

One last thing so that I make sure I'm understanding what you're saying through the conversation.. you always refer to the smaller socketed points as dart points.. what do you call the larger points that were attached right to the main shaft like the raddatz points? Okay... one more "last thing" LOL! If you get the chance check out this little study- http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3904/is_200204/ai_n9064134 I would like to hear your feedback on the topic.. it's more or less the same case I'm trying to make but he has a much larger study group and weights for them all and what not-

 

[Neanderthal]

There are several sites that discuss the paleo / atlatl, however the foreshafts may not be exactly like you're thinking. Gramley suggests that the "bone rods" that are typical on paleo Indian sites are in fact foreshafts. Here is one quote on experimental archeology that you may appreciate.

Dart points were used with the atlatl, or dart thrower. This is a powerful hunting weapon. When the Spanish invaded Mexico, the atlatl dart was the only weapon they feared as it could penetrate Spanish armor. In experiments on a dead African elephant (named Ginsberg), Errett Callahan (1994) found that "without an atlatl I could only penetrate Ginsberg the length of the point, about three inches - enough to tickle her - but with the atlatl I could penetrate about half the depth of her chest cavity, enough for a sure kill, conclusion - you can't kill an elephant with a Clovis spear without an atlatl" (emphasis as in original) (Callahan 1994:25).

Here's a link (there are many) that discuss the paleo / atlatl
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_point

And here's a link that has a great bibliography for reading material that may interest you.
http://web.grinnell.edu/anthropology/Atlatl Stuff for John/atlatlbib2004.htm

The Folsom isn't an exhausted Clovis point, as they are made completely different. Granted, both are fluted, but it's accomplished in an entirely different way. The folsom is fluted with a 'dome and plane' technology, while clovis show a more diverse range in their fluting. Per manufacturing techniques, there actually are many points out there that are 'folsomoid' and made by similar means. On a Clovis point the flute is the last thing done, with little to no edge retouching done after this. In contrast, the flute is done much earlier in manufacture and they are trimmed, shaped, retouched after the flute.

I would wager that the majority of points you have found have been used as knives, cutting implements or scrapers. There wasn't as big of a necessity for projectile points as there was just ordinary tools. Have you tried skinning large game with a flint knife yet? They work great, but you have to resharpen them frequently and you'll wind up wearing them out quicker than you may think. Material has alot to do with it though. Check out the edges on an artifact and often they'll tell the story for you. Beveling of course is the result of resharpening and they are knives, that's a given. But, that was an (generally) archaic technique and wasn't employed by all (Harahey is one of the exceptions).

I'll have to read the page you linked to later, it looks very interesting! I forgot what I was gonna type next...I'm bad about that. Hopefully it will come to me later and if so, I'll type it in..lol.

 

[Cannonman17]

Bone forshafts in paleo times surely makes sense... particularly in the Northern regions where decent wood may have been at a premium. I know that there have been tundra type animal remains found all around my area.

I hear you loud and clear about the butchering thing with the knives. I have cleaned a turkey for a friend, and an entire deer for myself using primitive knives... it was a real eye opener. Exactly as you say, they dull much quicker than one might expect!!! I resharpened an obsidian knife before even finishing the turkey. My hixton knife help up much better for the deer but dulled faster than what I thought it would none the less.

I'm going to go check you your links-

 

[Flintfinder]

I throw the atal atlal, quite often. It have been able to get quite accurate with it.  I can see the ancients standing back and throwing these from a distance.  When I try to throw mine for say 50 yards it never hits the mark. If I stand back and lob it at the target long range I can hit a target.  If a few of them stood back and lobed these then It would look like it does in the movies when you see the archers shoot in the air and the arrows come dropping in on the targets. I can also throw a line drive with the atal atal,  I'm only accurate up to about 50 feet or so. No doubt in my mind you could drop small prey like that.( deer size) The points that I find in Mo. all seem to big to be shot by a bow or an atalatal.(most of the points I find are at least 2 inches long) Is that why the arrows are so long? does that help counter balance the point? If the point is heavier in the front end, it will never do a line drive straight ,and will nose dive. which makes me think that these points were lobed at the target.  My atal has the slip in shaft, like the shafts Matt showed. When I pull my arrow out of a target, dirt etc. the point always stays in the target, and I have to remove it and plug it back in, or put a new arrow shaft into it. It just seems to make sense that if I were to shoot a mammoth, or something big and pissed off, that I wouldn't run up to it to pull my main shaft out to reload it. What I am trying to say is I don't know if I buy that or not, because they were firing the whole arrow. Now after the kill it made it probably easier to just go up and pull, and if the arrowhead had damage etc. they didn't have to start over just plug a new tip in and they are ready to go again. JMO John P.s if you do'nt own an atal, get you one, me and my boys love to throw them they are a blast.

 

[Flintfinder]

Heres a pic of a cheap one, that you could probably make yourself. This is a practice atal, they are 5 foot arrows. Looks like the pup got a hold of it. John

 

[Cannonman17]

flintfinder- if much of what you find seems to be too big to be an arrow or a dart point it probably is. I think knives are frequently mistaken for spears.
I agree with you on the atlatl- they are fun! I've been tossing them around for a few years also, I just actually purchased my first one the other day, still waiting for it to get here though.

 

[stryker-one]

I just got back to this topic. There is all manner of data that has been offered up--most times in these forums it is not so much what is factual information that aides us in our quest, it for me, is often information that is more experienced opinion that is offered up that I find beneficial.

Thank you for your input.

Stryker