Armchair Quarterbacking LDM Legend.. even Experts are guessing

[BuffaloBob]

Member RANGLER kind offer to diagnose Treasure Signs! A Great Free Service from a fellow TNeter.
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...1075-treasure-marks-signs-diagnosed-here.html
please don't abuse or post any negative comments to RANGLER..
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My first search today was to the APACHE JUNCTION PUBLIC LIBRARY. The collected materials they have would be the best evidence of source materials. That is where history buffs go to begin their searches. Here is the first page I found. Quoting...

There is not one shred of evidence to suggest the Peraltas ever mined in the Superstition Mountains or that they were massacred by the Apaches. Alfred Strong Lewis, in his manuscript, Rain God's Gold, theorized the Peraltas or Spaniards worked the rich goldfields four miles northeast of present day Apache Junction and were massacred by the Apaches as they were preparing to leave the area and return to Sonora in 1847. Lewis' scenario safeguarded Storm's unproven theory. Alfred Strong Lewis was a mining engineer who was totally convinced the Goldfields were the source of Jacob Waltz's bonanza gold ore. This theory continues to linger today unproven, but a logical choice.

That is what this researcher wrote. I know more about the PERALTAS family than this guy. Just because someone jots his personal thoughts about whatever doesn't make it true.

Every SPANISH Mine has been marked. To survive hundreds of years. Unless someone messes with them they still exist.
Every Sign or Symbol (SS) has a specific almost universal meaning to the Spaniards. Every detail of the symbols are recorded and shipping documents. Including how the mine or cache was sealed. Every opening was sealed with CALICHE. Every mine has multiple death traps. Carefully coded on the shipping documents.

Every dangerous or flooded mine was sealed the same way. Spain expected every mine to revisited even a hundred years later. These were not people who leave open caves or pits. Unless they want to. Every obvious Treasure sign has a corresponding Death Trap. Carved in stone..
Example a certain symbol tells one to traverse along the right wall only. Left has danger. Meaning DEATH.

Chas. KENWORTHY has a few books about DEATH TRAPS to TREASURE plus others. hey are a plethora of how dangerous the Spanish traps are. The armchair researcher, like myself,takes those warnings to heart.

It was not uncommon for the Spanish to "hire" hundreds of local;s. To move or carve mountains. To carve mountaintops to specific shapes. Ans build the death traps. Recall the Indiana Jones adventures? Those were/are indeed Spanish Death Traps. Traps that either deadly or worse.. trap you underground in a stone vault forever. That someone foolishly stepped on something that triggered the trap.

Anyway IMHO you need to actually see the sites you are researching. Is that little turtle-like rock mean something? Those trail markers are important. To the Spanish returning to a mine. Could mean OK this is the way. Or as likely, on their map "when you see the second turtle sign, double back to the firs and go uphill". THAT is what the return maps detail. Death traps, Indians, bad water, bad air, YOU ARE BEING WATCHED FROM ABOVE, soldiers. Plus this trips Varas meaning. Days, nights, persons whatever.

Spanish signs are all over. Mines are all over. Mountain tops describe "you are here" now turn North. Without copies of Spanish shipping records, the closer you get to treasure, the closer to death. And that's a fact Jack!
BB

 

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[BuffaloBob]

Here are reference links from the Library..
Apache Junction Public Library

Apache Junction Public Library - Archeological Society

Apache Junction Public Library - Archeological Society

Apache Junction Public Library - Treasure Maps

Follow the links to find what you are looking for.. including MAPS
Good Hunting and Stay Safe!
BB

 

[BuffaloBob]

I downloaded and printed hard copies of 58 maps. You can visualize the areas mapped. Appear to be a lot of mines in the area. Some are very specific and some used living trees, stumps plants that won't last forever. And other siting lines depending on where the sun hits at a certain day of the year. Pretty cool...
BB

 

[sdcfia]

Every SPANISH Mine has been marked. To survive hundreds of years. Unless someone messes with them they still exist.
Every Sign or Symbol (SS) has a specific almost universal meaning to the Spaniards. Every detail of the symbols are recorded and shipping documents. Including how the mine or cache was sealed. Every opening was sealed with CALICHE. Every mine has multiple death traps. Carefully coded on the shipping documents.
<cut>
BB

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. Here's the truth: the mines were not owned by the Crown, only licensed to private contractors who paid to play. The contractors owned the mining operations and ran them as they wished. The King didn't care what they did as long as he got his share. Then, after Mexican independence, it was a free-for-all. Most of the old mines you think are Spanish are from the Anglo period, ca 1850-1940, depending on your location. There was no standardization of mine location coding on shipping documents. Do yourself a favor and set aside that Kenworthy nonsense and do some digging about New World mining. I don't expect you to take my word for it - find out for yourself if you're curious. There have been some posts recently that point to lots of links.

 

[Azquester]

My first search today was to the APACHE JUNCTION PUBLIC LIBRARY. The collected materials they have would be the best evidence of source materials. That is where history buffs go to begin their searches. Here is the first page I found. Quoting...



That is what this researcher wrote. I know more about the PERALTAS family than this guy. Just because someone jots his personal thoughts about whatever doesn't make it true.

Every SPANISH Mine has been marked. To survive hundreds of years. Unless someone messes with them they still exist.
Every Sign or Symbol (SS) has a specific almost universal meaning to the Spaniards. Every detail of the symbols are recorded and shipping documents. Including how the mine or cache was sealed. Every opening was sealed with CALICHE. Every mine has multiple death traps. Carefully coded on the shipping documents.

Every dangerous or flooded mine was sealed the same way. Spain expected every mine to revisited even a hundred years later. These were not people who leave open caves or pits. Unless they want to. Every obvious Treasure sign has a corresponding Death Trap. Carved in stone..
Example a certain symbol tells one to traverse along the right wall only. Left has danger. Meaning DEATH.

Chas. KENWORTHY has a few books about DEATH TRAPS to TREASURE plus others. hey are a plethora of how dangerous the Spanish traps are. The armchair researcher, like myself,takes those warnings to heart.

It was not uncommon for the Spanish to "hire" hundreds of local;s. To move or carve mountains. To carve mountaintops to specific shapes. Ans build the death traps. Recall the Indiana Jones adventures? Those were/are indeed Spanish Death Traps. Traps that either deadly or worse.. trap you underground in a stone vault forever. That someone foolishly stepped on something that triggered the trap.

Anyway IMHO you need to actually see the sites you are researching. Is that little turtle-like rock mean something? Those trail markers are important. To the Spanish returning to a mine. Could mean OK this is the way. Or as likely, on their map "when you see the second turtle sign, double back to the firs and go uphill". THAT is what the return maps detail. Death traps, Indians, bad water, bad air, YOU ARE BEING WATCHED FROM ABOVE, soldiers. Plus this trips Varas meaning. Days, nights, persons whatever.

Spanish signs are all over. Mines are all over. Mountain tops describe "you are here" now turn North. Without copies of Spanish shipping records, the closer you get to treasure, the closer to death. And that's a fact Jack!
BB

BB, I like what your saying. Don't listen to the Anti-Kenworthy crowd he was and still is a good source of information. The only reason your getting back lash is because non of the people that say that have actually seen a death symbol or death trap or have never bothered to look in the field at what Chuck has written. His son Tiger wrote the book sort of child like on purpose because the information was done in that manner by the priests and warlocs. This was dictated by the land and the most easy way of making a Glyph shadow, rock or Petroglyph sign.

Bill

 

[Hal Croves]

BB, I like what your saying. Don't listen to the Anti-Kenworthy crowd he was and still is a good source of information. The only reason your getting back lash is because non of the people that say that have actually seen a death symbol or death trap or have never bothered to look in the field at what Chuck has written. His son Tiger wrote the book sort of child like on purpose because the information was done in that manner by the priests and warlocs. This was dictated by the land and the most easy way of making a Glyph shadow, rock or Petroglyph sign.

Bill

Kenworthy's work is controversial and his facts sometimes flawed. Still, an important read for those wanting to learn the system.

 

[sdcfia]

Kenworthy's work is controversial and his facts sometimes flawed. Still, an important read for those wanting to learn to system.

IMO he was either a blatant disinformationist or the world's most gullible rich guy. Got his secrets from the Spanish Archives, huh? It's pathetic. Sad, too - not only for him but for his groupies.

Ooops, oh-oh, look out ... here comes Stormin' Mike. Ha ha.

 

[Hal Croves]

IMO he was either a blatant disinformationist or the world's most gullible rich guy. Got his secrets from the Spanish Archives, huh? It's pathetic. Sad, too - not only for him but for his groupies.

Ooops, oh-oh, look out ... here comes Stormin' Mike. Ha ha.

Obviously you are not a Kenworthy fan. Do you have any proof that he actually did not have access to archives in Spain/Mexico? If so, will you share it or explain it?

Money opens many locked doors and as you wrote, he was rich.

 

[sdcfia]

Obviously you are not a Kenworthy fan. Do you have any proof that he actually did not have access to archives in Spain/Mexico? If so, will you share it or explain it?

Money opens many locked doors and as you wrote, he was rich.

"A foole & his money,
be soone at debate:
which after with sorow,
repents him to late."

Here's an interesting article about research in the Spanish archives. General Archive of the Indies, Seville | Dissertation Reviews

I don't doubt that he hired a researcher. Anybody can. I asked a staff member about alleged treasure maps and secret documents at the Seville archives last year, and she winked, smiled, and said, "Of course. All you have to do is ask for them. We get lots of requests." She also said that the small group of contract researchers she was in contact with simply roll their eyes and round-file these sorts of inquiries. No, I can't prove anything. It's my opinion that you can't buy these kind of secret because I've seen no reason to believe they exist. On the other hand, the guy sold a lot of books. Believe whatever floats your boat.

 

[BuffaloBob]

Wow.. touchy subject. Probably need to clarify my research. SPANISH MINES
The maps show many other mines. Other minerals or interesting stuff. They are pretty clearly marked, and easily found. See a hole in the ground r a mine shaft or opening.. probably some mining activity. Always interesting to search. Old artifacts found around them and where I would detect. But the Big Mines. The still hidden ones, other than the LDM, are where real treasures may be. If you can find them. Spain was a very rich country. The Kings required a percentage iof any valuable stuff. And proof of where it came from and how to return.

Figure a Spanish ship with crew and supplies sail to Mexico. From there they trek to where the mines are. Ones in NM, Colo, Arizona are quite a trip. On horseback. Along the Kings Roads.

How do they know where to go? Thousands of mines maybe. Their maps show Mountain Tops with particular features.


How could a mountain top be refigured otr hollowed out or a big animal carved? Manpower.

IF you run across the trail markers you can count on them leading someone to Treasure. If they lead to to a spot that you figure "step here" or Dig this rock? That may be your last trip. The Spanish/Jesuits knew more about hiding stuff than we will ever know. Why.. because it is still hidden.
Have fun......
BB

 

[BuffaloBob]

IMO he was either a blatant disinformationist or the world's most gullible rich guy. Got his secrets from the Spanish Archives, huh? It's pathetic. Sad, too - not only for him but for his groupies.
Ooops, oh-oh, look out ... here comes Stormin' Mike. Ha ha.

sdcfia Please don't take this the wrong way, but appear, to me anyway, to be sadly misinformed. I will place the blame on our school system.
When treasure signs and trail markers are talked about it is Generally Spanish/Religious groups. They are the ones with real treasure. Their voyages and return trips took most of their time. Limited supplies allowed for maybe a few months to work any mine. Gold was I think melted into bars. They were sometimes stored in caches that look and are protected like the mines.

Mexican and Indians who were familiar with signs also used them. But may not have built in death traps. Their mines could be open. Or covered or camoflaged. But not with half a hjillside of loose rock. They had no reason.

The Colorado river banks near the border are covered with carved or painted signs. The plain have Runes as well as Ancient signs. Whjer next water is, next cave for shelter.. Every sign means something.

Jesse James and modern people hiding loot use their own symbols. Again just because some person thinks THIS IS THE SPOT, doesn't mean squat.
How would you hide and map your loot? Would it be obvious to the casual treasure hunter or would it be misdirection. Or booby trapped.

The most accurate indication of a Spanish Mine is.. you will never see it. What you see will always be a death trap. How could they dig a 6'x6'x10' deep pit in solid Granite? I don't know but they have. Step in the wrong place, pry up a rock.. BAM. Dead or not your body may never be found.
BB

 

[azblackbird]

The most accurate indication of a Spanish Mine is.. you will never see it. What you see will always be a death trap. How could they dig a 6'x6'x10' deep pit in solid Granite? I don't know but they have. Step in the wrong place, pry up a rock.. BAM. Dead or not your body may never be found.

Give me a fricking break

Has anybody here ever actually been outdoors and been witness to an actual mine or a prospect that's been dug up? Explain to me how you're gonna booby trap a pocket digging, which BTW constitutes roughly 95% of the diggings you will find in the Supers and the surrounding areas. I suppose if you want to call them "mines" then that's your prerogative. I just call them pits. Since the mid to late 1800's and early 1900's, anybody that's worth their salt as a geologist (whether independent or company sponsored) has scoured that entire country long before it became a wilderness area. I guarantee that if there was something worth digging in the SWA, somebody would have found it long ago, mined it and been long gone. Just as they did with the areas surrounding the SWA that were well known back in the day, and are now today's tourist traps.

 

[BuffaloBob]

This has to be one of the best posts i have read on here. I did my share of looking til the day i walked into a certain valley that had a triangle carved into a wall. It had a cactus marker and a peephole. The peephole was a triangle shape with a triangle sight in it that looke at 3 dots on a wall in a triangle. I had the same recurring dream of falling through the ground and drowning. I had the dream for 7 days or so. Didnt make sense cause it was far from water but damn it was so real. I woke up sweating and really afraid. I told myself it was my imagination so i packed my bags late one night to go back there for a week. My daughter awoke crying and screaming daddy daddy daddy. Freaked me out. That happened maybe a year ago and i havent went back since.
I do believe the part about the carving mountain sides like you stated cause i have seen with my own eyes. I just dont understand how they could be so accurate in measurements 3-400 miles apart?its all very odd. I always laughed at the people looking for the ldm cause its like robbing a bank and taking the rolls of pennies. Anyways i brlieve that map is very very old. Maybe a copy of a copy. Idk.

Yes I agree.. genuine genius on accurate mapping. One method they use when pointing to a hillside and code says 110' towards the hill. Not straight up the hill but 110' into the hill. Needed to understand math better than me. Or 1500' Measured as the crow flies, through the hill. So clever. Spanish explorers ruled the world. 350+ years of mining and mapmaking. Accuracy also depended on what the landmarks are. Trail signs, rocks or anything unusual tell them.. turn 90 degrees to the right for seven vara. Vara the map would clue them that the seven referred to nights. Or Miles. Or weeks. Or hours. Every site had a map-key.

In the past I have reviewed some Signs for hunters. One sign showed two rivers or water. Meaning a water trap under their feet. They agreed hat was what they though too. I gather you had a dangerous situation occur? Trust your instincts. Voices in your head are YOU. Ask questions.. good idea? Whatever your first impressions will be right.

These maps made over a period of hundreds of years are so accurate, IMHO because they hired people to measure by rods or something. Walking with a chain? Tey understood surveying.
BB

 

[BuffaloBob]

Give me a fricking break

Has anybody here ever actually been outdoors and been witness to an actual mine or a prospect that's been dug up? Explain to me how you're gonna booby trap a pocket digging, which BTW constitutes roughly 95% of the diggings you will find in the Supers and the surrounding areas. I suppose if you want to call them "mines" then that's your prerogative. I just call them pits. Since the mid to late 1800's and early 1900's, anybody that's worth their salt as a geologist (whether independent or company sponsored) has scoured that entire country long before it became a wilderness area. I guarantee that if there was something worth digging in the SWA, somebody would have found it long ago, mined it and been long gone. Just as they did with the areas surrounding the SWA that were well known back in the day, and are now today's tourist traps.

We are talking about Spanish Mine Traps..
The most common are called the "Death Trap Grande". In which a huge boulder or even hillside is the trap. Depending on the terrain this is the concept [from back cover of Death Traps To Treasure, Kenworthy]


The biggest Grandes were designed to take out 10-15 men. And send others running. This is a trap triggered by digging. They had been designing and building traps for hundreds of years. With hundreds of volunteer workers at their disposal, there was no problem building them.
BB

 

[BuffaloBob]

Regarding locating treasure, I have heard from several hunters who have been successful. They have described death and near death events. to get the Gold. If you survive your search the biggest threat is your big mouth. And your partners. And your ex-wifes lawyer. And the IRS, States attorneys, insurance companies and poor relatives.

Serious treasure hunters have absolute trust in their partners. I have no idea about how to cash in on gold bullion or bars. Selling any valuable item on Ebay for example is never a good idea. You are on your own there. Can you keep a secret?

Onvce you find what you are looking for can open up a whole new can of worms. Keep a low profile. Don't be like ME...
BB

 

[etex]

Give me a death trap Grande to go please

 

[azblackbird]

The biggest Grandes were designed to take out 10-15 men. And send others running. This is a trap triggered by digging. They had been designing and building traps for hundreds of years. With hundreds of volunteer workers at their disposal, there was no problem building them.

I can just picture it... (using my best "we don't need no stinking badges voice") here's how I see it all going down...

Spanish Boss speaking to the many hundreds of "volunteers": First off, I want to thank you all for coming out. I know your horses must be tired after traveling the many miles from your homes in Phoenix. There's a big lake just down the hill, feel free to lead them over there and water them. Today we're gonna build a booby trap over this mine. With the "plethora" of men we have available here today, there's no reason why we shouldn't be able to move a couple of those 100 ton boulders from over there, and place them over here above this mine entrance, and get this all knocked out by dark. Remember guys... you need to build this booby trap so it will last for many centuries, or at the very least, until I get back from my vacation in Spain. Since we don't have any stinking watches, lunch will be served when that shadow over there on that mountain side, moves to the spot over there on that other mountain side, and forms the likeness of crow. Oh yea one last thing... any man that speaks of the location of this mine will forever be cursed by the wizard of the Superstitions... and will have their tongues cut out. Now let's get to work peoples... daylight's a burnin'... Undalay, Undalay, Undalay!

Me thinks a few here are living in a fantasy world.

 

[gollum]

BB,

Keep one thing in mind about SDCFIA. Quite often, He doesn't show a lot of tact in his replies. That may put you off on him somewhat, but you need people like him to keep you grounded.

EVERYTHING in this world works best at a balance. In nature, there needs to be a balance between the numbers of predators and prey in a given area. Too much of either throws off nature's intended balance. The United States works well at a balance. For every crazy Bible-Thumping right wing gun toting conservative Republican, there needs to be a crazy atheist left wing tree hugging liberal Democrat. Too much on one side, and we have the government run by religious fanatics who want to insinuate themselves into every aspect of your life (and we know how good that works from the Middle East). Too much the other way and we have the government run by people that want to take money from the people that earn it, and redistribute it to do nothing loafers who want to spend their days smoking weed and playing video games.

.....regarding this subject...... we have a lot of people on this forum that see Spanish Signs and Symbols in every shadow and bush. For every one of them, we need to have someone on the opposite side. Whenever I have posted a picture of something i have found in the field, I get a million replies saying that I missed this and that. They are seeing something man made in every rock crack (or crack rock ;-) and shadow. People like SDCFIA will keep you grounded to the point of aggravation. HAHAHA

SDCFIA,

Bet you never thought I'd be taking your back, huh? HAHAHA But its true, for every negative, there needs to be a positive. Yin and Yang. Light and Dark. Sun and Moon.


Now, as I have said before...... Chuck Kenworthy gave out a lot of information. He had a LOT of money. He NEVER said that he went to any archives. He sent letters to many archives around the world asking for certain things. He paid many archivists and docents from museums and archives all around the world. While I have actually been in some archives, I have corresponded with Archivists from several large Archives from all over the world. I regularly correspond with one at the Archivo Vaticano and the Jesuit Curia (both in Rome). I have old family friends that work at the University of Mexico in Mexico City that can access the Archivo de la Nacion. Kenworthy's Money gave him access to a lot of places. I have posted this before, but since CK's name has been brought up, I will post this again:

Monument Trail To..............

That is a thread I posted specifically to address the people that claim all of CK's claims to be BS. Not every monument is out of CK's Books, but the ones that are, only go to prove that what CK claimed is not BS. I will tell everybody exactly what Kenworthy did by publishing his books. He already had a crapton of money from the L.A. Real Estate Market in the 1960s and 1970s (he was a multimillionaire). He didn't really need a few thousand dollars he may have made from sales of those books (which he self published). The things in his books were/are real. They will get you most of the way to a treasure. The closer you get, the smaller and more coded the clues get. I believe Kenworthy did that on purpose. A person finds clues, then follows them, and gets stuck. He kept the final clues to himself. So that when that person that was stuck sent him a letter with pictures, he could offer (for a percentage) to come in and help get that person from wherever they were to the mine/treasure. Simple. CK was not in this for the sake of Philanthropy. He was in this to make money.

Mike

 

[motel6.5]

Ok, so everbody is in the various searches for the green,meaning money. That really is old news. the Dutchman was in it for the money,and all others that follwed him into the desert were of the same persawison. Money for the most part makes the world swing.Also Kenworthy had plenty of funds,yet that did not stop him from wanting more,just like Billonares today...Today,maybe right now differant groups of people are looking for gold in the Supers.,and even maybe at midnight there are people working claims in the Supers.As long as folks thinks there is Gold or treasure to be gotten in the Supers, there will be groups or individuals looking to rip it out. Its called Greed and Human nature
inharent in most of us to take a short cut to riches.So go for it and don:t look back,except to protect your back.

 

[gollum]

BB,

I can tell you more than most about Spanish Death Traps. Forget what you saw in Indiana Jones Movies. Craploads more people have been killed by dehydration and no/two/four legged critters than have ever even been near a Spanish Death Trap. I can tell you that they do 100% exist, but they are exceedingly rare.

My old friend Mike Pickett had pictures on his now defunct website (Treasurehuntersuniversity.com) of an authentic Spanish Death Trap in Sonora, Mexico. He sent me the RAW Pics and the entire story:

The treasure hunters found a bunch of petroglyphs that showed coiled snakes which (in the context of Spanish Symbolism) mean DANGER. Near the top of a ridge line, they found an odd monument that looked an awful lot like a human silhouette.



Searching the area that the silhouette appeared to be looking, they found a well covered ................. something. With an opening on the inside.



After they cleaned the place out, this is what it looked like:




In the center of the picture, you will see a VERY large boulder balanced on a smaller rock. The smaller rock is actually part of the bedrock under the boulder. It was shaped for this specific purpose. Look carefully to the right (our right) of the large boulder. There are three rocks piled on each other. Behind the large boulder is the entrance to a very rich gold mine. The bottom of the three rocks on the right side is about six feet long and obstructs the entrance of the gold mine. The way it works is that when a person moves that bottom rock, it dislodges the two above it (that are keeping the large boulder balanced). The boulder falls on the backside of the piece of bedrock. If this doesn't crush the intruder, it will trap them. Because the boulder falls behind the chunk of bedrock, it can't be pushed/rolled out of the way. If the intruder does not have people on the outside with tools enough to get that boulder moved, they are done for.

Mike