🔎 UNIDENTIFIED Any ideas on this silver ?

[Marino13]

Picked this up at an estate sale. The handle says pat. 1862?? Then G.S.?? Hallmarks on bottom of cup. Is it a gravy ladle? Any ideas on maker would be appreciated too. Thanks.

 

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[Gene Mean]

That's nice
Unique style. My wife says it's for wine or punch bowl.

 

[opalboy]

The lion with the lifted paw denotes sterling.

 

[ArfieBoy]

I have no idea about it. Some of the people who know about silver on here could give you information about it. Good luck.

 

[Marino13]

The lion with the lifted paw denotes sterling.

Yes, I'm pretty sure it's sterling, the s stamp I think is for a date of 1867. Not sure what the other lion thingies are tho.

 

[Red-Coat]

Nice. I would call it a ‘dipper’ and used for serving liquids from a larger vessel into cups or glasses. Typically for thinks like hot toddies and punches.

Definitely NOT sterling and the lions passant are just for show, with no meaning in relation to silver fineness.

The 'S' between two lions (and the initials 'G.S.') are for George B. Sharp of Philadelphia, but it’s a maker mark for silver plate, not a hallmark for silver. I can’t reliably read the patent date, which you say is ‘1862’. It looks more like ‘1868’ to me but I’m sure you can read it better than I can from a photograph. Sharp was active in the 1850s, working exclusively as shop superintendent for the firm Bailey & Co. but then opened his own workshop in 1867 (using the same mark) and went out of business in 1874.

 

[Marino13]

Nice. I would call it a ‘dipper’ and used for serving liquids from a larger vessel into cups or glasses. Typically for thinks like hot toddies and punches.

Definitely NOT sterling and the lions passant are just for show, with no meaning in relation to silver fineness.

The 'S' between two lions (and the initials 'G.S.') are for George B. Sharp of Philadelphia, but it’s a maker mark for silver plate, not a hallmark for silver. I can’t reliably read the patent date, which you say is ‘1862’. It looks more like ‘1868’ to me but I’m sure you can read it better than I can from a photograph. Sharp was active in the 1850s, working exclusively as shop superintendent for the firm Bailey & Co. but then opened his own workshop in 1867 (using the same mark) and went out of business in 1874.

That's a little disappointing. Thanks!

 

[Red-Coat]

That's a little disappointing. Thanks!

You're welcome... BUT... I did a little more checking and it seems that Sharp used the same mark on both silver and silver plate. I would have expected that if it were silver then it would be marked as such though... but I wouldn't give up on it.

American makers borrowed the English lion passant mark for sterling and used it indiscriminately as a pseudo-hallmark on plated items, so it's not in itself a guarantee for sterling in the way it saw official use in English assay offices.

 

[Marino13]

You're welcome... BUT... I did a little more checking and it seems that Sharp used the same mark on both silver and silver plate. I would have expected that if it were silver then it would be marked as such though... but I wouldn't give up on it.

American makers borrowed the English lion passant mark for sterling and used it indiscriminately as a pseudo-hallmark on plated items, so it's not in itself a guarantee for sterling in the way it saw official use in English assay offices.

Thanks, I did more research as well. I don't think he did any Plat items because I could find none anywhere. The handle could be plate but the cup is sterling I'm pretty sure.

 

[ARC]

100% Sterling IMO.
The lion passant is the most recognizable hallmark for sterling silver in Britain.
And its True / plumb sterling at that.
Red Coat.. your a Brit yes ?

 

[xr7ator]

The blue-ish tint seen in pic 2 makes me think plate but the scratch 1 o'clock on the third pic seems pretty deep for no base metal to show through if just plate.

 

[Red-Coat]

100% Sterling IMO.
The lion passant is the most recognizable hallmark for sterling silver in Britain.
And its True / plumb sterling at that.
Red Coat.. your a Brit yes ?

Yes, but this is an American piece and, as I said earlier, American makers extensively borrowed the English lion and used it indiscriminately. Usually, on American pieces it's a pseudo-hallmark on silver plate unless accompanied by the word 'sterling'. On American pieces, these kinds of marks are self-applied by the maker and have no official assay substantiation or meaning.

By contrast, on English pieces, the lion passant is an official hallmark applied by an assay office as a guarantee of minimum .925 fine silver. It faces to the left only and is never seen in pairs facing one another.

 

[ARC]

Yes, but this is an American piece and, as I said earlier, American makers extensively borrowed the English lion. Usually, on American pieces it's a pseudo-hallmark on silver plate unless accompanied by the word 'sterling'. On American pieces, these kinds of marks are self-applied by the maker and have no official assay substantiation or meaning.

By contrast, on English pieces, the lion passant is an official hallmark applied by an assay office as a guarantee of minimum .925 fine silver. It faces to the left only and is never seen in pairs facing one another.

Do you know... that i would bet....
that there is more British made silver in America than there is in Britain.
Especially the antique stuff.
heh.
So in other words... the likelihood its Brit Silver is extremely high.
The collectors base AND consumer base of antique OR just British silver here has always been a thrive... especially years ago when silver was "the in thing" to own and collect here.

 

[ARC]

The collectors base AND consumer base of antique OR just British silver here has always been a thrive... especially years ago when silver was "the in thing" to own and collect here.

With all the above babble...
I get what you are saying RC... and yes agree that this could be a case.
BUT...
I think this is the real deal just looking at it.
ODD yes.... and there is something definitely going on with those marks...
You of all people have the knack with these marks so i leave these alone for you to sleuth down.
And you do a good job at it i might add.

PS... In hand... i would be able to tell if it were Sterling in 30 seconds... or less of course.

 

[Marino13]

With all the above babble...
I get what you are saying RC... and yes agree that this could be a case.
BUT...
I think this is the real deal just looking at it.
ODD yes.... and there is something definitely going on with those marks...
You of all people have the knack with these marks so i leave these alone for you to sleuth down.
And you do a good job at it i might add.

PS... In hand... i would be able to tell if it were Sterling in 30 seconds... or less of course.

Red coat is correct about the maker George Sharp his lion s lion mark identifies him as a Philadelphia silversmith. Now as for the other two lions I have no idea. The ball end handle patent was by Sharp as well and all pieces similar. were sterling in my search.

 

[Red-Coat]

Do you know... that i would bet....
that there is more British made silver in America than there is in Britain.
Especially the antique stuff.
heh.
So in other words... the likelihood its Brit Silver is extremely high.
The collectors base AND consumer base of antique OR just British silver here has always been a thrive... especially years ago when silver was "the in thing" to own and collect here.

With all the above babble...
I get what you are saying RC... and yes agree that this could be a case.
BUT...
I think this is the real deal just looking at it.
ODD yes.... and there is something definitely going on with those marks...
You of all people have the knack with these marks so i leave these alone for you to sleuth down.
And you do a good job at it i might add.

PS... In hand... i would be able to tell if it were Sterling in 30 seconds... or less of course.

Thanks. The maker is not in any doubt. It's 100% the mark of George B. Sharp of Philadelphia, with the lions passant having no official meaning. He's listed as using that mark on both silver and silver plate, but most of his output does seem to have been silver:

American sterling silver: marks and hallmarks of US makers: Sa-Sh

marks and hallmarks of American and Canadian sterling silver, coin silver, solid silver, silver plate makers, with makers marks, location, history of American metalware makers SAART BROS COMPANY, SACKETT & CO LTD, G.T. SADTLER & SONS, SALES STIMULATORS INC, H.I. SAWYER, SCHOFIELD CO INC...

www.silvercollection.it

British silver does not carry the lion passant as the only mark. It's part of a compulsory set that includes the mark for the assay office, a date letter, and (when applicable) a duty mark as the monarch's head. None of those are present on this piece (and the duty mark was required until 1890).

I agree that this might well be silver (as acknowledged in my revised opinion) and, I too, would be able to say for sure if I had it in my hand. I don't know of any reliable way to tell if American pseudo-hallmarks are for plate or solid silver apart from via company histories, or when they have an accompanying word mark such as 'sterling', 'coin' or whatever.

 

[Marino13]

Thanks. The maker is not in any doubt. It's 100% the mark of George B. Sharp of Philadelphia, with the lions passant having no official meaning. He's listed as using that mark on both silver and silver plate, but most of his output does seem to have been silver:

View attachment 2189942

American sterling silver: marks and hallmarks of US makers: Sa-Sh

marks and hallmarks of American and Canadian sterling silver, coin silver, solid silver, silver plate makers, with makers marks, location, history of American metalware makers SAART BROS COMPANY, SACKETT & CO LTD, G.T. SADTLER & SONS, SALES STIMULATORS INC, H.I. SAWYER, SCHOFIELD CO INC...

www.silvercollection.it

British silver does not carry the lion passant as the only mark. It's part of a compulsory set that includes the mark for the assay office, a date letter, and (when applicable) a duty mark as the monarch's head. None of those are present on this piece (and the duty mark was required until 1890).

I agree that this might well be silver (as acknowledged in my revised opinion) and, I too, would be able to say for sure if I had it in my hand. I don't know of any reliable way to tell if American pseudo-hallmarks are for plate or solid silver apart from via company histories, or when they have an accompanying word mark such as 'sterling', 'coin' or whatever.

I am a bit miffed as to why there was no sterling stamp anywhere as I have found other pieces with his patented ball end handle which were stamped sterling. There is an almost duplicate on eBay listed as sterling but as we know you can't trust eBay.

 

[Red-Coat]

I am a bit miffed as to why there was no sterling stamp anywhere as I have found other pieces with his patented ball end handle which were stamped sterling. There is an almost duplicate on eBay listed as sterling but as we know you can't trust eBay.

Yes, that's a bummer, and I would agree about reliability of eBay listings. If the word 'sterling' had been present, that would be a clincher; but it's absence doesn't rule out it being silver rather than plated. I assume close scrutiny does not show areas where any plating it might have has begun to wear away. A competent jeweller should be able to tell you if it's silver.

Just a few words of caution about purity testing. Electroplating deposits essentially pure silver (close to 1000 fine) onto the base metal core and that's an unlikely choice for a solid silver utensil with a long handle since it's rather soft and bends easily. However, the earlier 'Sheffield Plate' process usually applies a layer of .925 silver onto the base metal which can't be distinguished from solid sterling silver without scratching an inconspicuous area to expose the interior.