Antique Rifle

[jihunter]

Apparently gun forums require a period of time before you can post threads so I am reaching out here. Any help greatly appreciated

 

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[Retired Sarge]

To be honest it looks like one of the rifles that came out of the Nepal Horde, that IMA (International Military Antiques) was/is selling. From a quick look on my cell phone, it looks like an Enfield P1853 (Muzzleloader) 3 Band Rifle. If in fact it's from the Nepal Horde, it could be an British made one, Nepalese made one, or combo of parts from both. I base the Nepal origins on the Devanagari or Sanskrit writing on it.

The 3 band term comes from it having 3 barrel bands, the shorter model has 2 and therefore is referred to as a 2 band Enfield.

Any background on the rifle? Where did you get it from?

Here's my P1853, updated from Muzzleloader to Breech Loader with the Snider-Enfield system. So you can compare the similarities (Just ignore the compartment on the breech end).

 

[Retired Sarge]

Looked at the pictures again and I'm not seeing any markings on the lockplate, unless it's under the grim. With that I'm leaning towards Nepal made copy of the P1853 Enfield.

These rifles came out of Nepal covered/coated/caked/encased (Pick your word) in crud that accumulated over a period of many years.

Tried to upload the following 11MB PDF, uploader says max allowed is 33.38 MB on here, but it said it was too big. Hopefully the link works properly. The PDF tells the story of the Nepal weapons and how they ended up here.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw1Mm4lEMe2HOU4qyHapCUiR

Here's a quote from the story regarding the unmarked lockplates.

"Most of the locks were unmarked, and all indications point to the fact that they were manufactured in India."

Here's another PDF link that might help with explaining or deciphering some of the markings that can found on Nepal weapons.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw25ksTZZltIA5zPctD01zUz

Just a final note the PDF files are safe.

I would recommend a total disassembly, inspection, cleaning and oiling of the weapon. For broken or missing parts, you can order them, but you'll have to do some hand fitting.

If you wish to shoot it, have a reputable gunsmith check and verify the barrel is safe, if good to go, do some light loads and let her belch smoke and fire.

 

[l.cutler]

ffuries got it!

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Agree with the Nepalese connection based on the writing on the tang.

 

[DCMatt]

Great ID. Once you clean off the yak fat and dust, you'll find more markings. It is likely a relic from the Sepoy Rebellion of 1857 - India's first organized attempt to gain independence, put down by the British. At the end, many Sepoys escaped to Nepal where they were disarmed at the boarder.

I have an East India Company model F (1849) from the Nepal Horde. It was a fun and interesting restoration. I use it in American Civil War reenacting (even though it is not really a correct weapon). I get a lot of sideways glances as guys try to figure out what I'm carrying.

Your markings are for the Devidutta Battalion Section 2 Number 15.

 

[Retired Sarge]

Great ID. Once you clean off the yak fat and dust, you'll find more markings. It is likely a relic from the Sepoy Rebellion of 1857 - India's first organized attempt to gain independence, put down by the British. At the end, many Sepoys escaped to Nepal where they were disarmed at the boarder.

I have an East India Company model F (1849) from the Nepal Horde. It was a fun and interesting restoration. I use it in American Civil War reenacting (even though it is not really a correct weapon). I get a lot of sideways glances as guys try to figure out what I'm carrying.

Your markings are for the Devidutta Battalion Section 2 Number 15.

Thanks for the decipher/translation assist there. I was exhausted last night and couldn't focus on the script. So I was going to try and do it today......

 

[NOLA_Ken]

yep Nepalese Enfield, I have one on my wall and another one in pieces in my shop. If you email pics of the markings to John Walter he will translate them for you. He wrote a book about them and is always interested in seeing new markings to add to his database [email protected]

You'll want to give it a very thorough cleaning, and conservation I can tell you how I went about doing mine if you want



EDIT: just saw DCMatt posted a translation, I'd still get in touch with John he's trying to compile as much info on these guns as he an get to make a reference database for collectors

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Just came back to this post....ffuries said to have the barrel checked if you want to shoot it, and that's extremely important. before you have anyone look at it take the barrel out of the stock and check for pitting on the bottom, if there's deep rust pits it's probably not safe. But it's also important to check the stock for cracks, especially behind the barrel and check the fit of the barrel bands, if they are loose I wouldn't recommend shooting it. if everything is tight, and the lock works, (I had to do some work on mine to get the sear to engage correctly) then it's worth having the inside of the barrel looked at to see if it's safe to load and fire, but if it has obvious problems it's probably best to save your money and just hang it on the wall

 

[Retired Sarge]

Just came back to this post....ffuries said to have the barrel checked if you want to shoot it, and that's extremely important. before you have anyone look at it take the barrel out of the stock and check for pitting on the bottom, if there's deep rust pits it's probably not safe. But it's also important to check the stock for cracks, especially behind the barrel and check the fit of the barrel bands, if they are loose I wouldn't recommend shooting it. if everything is tight, and the lock works, (I had to do some work on mine to get the sear to engage correctly) then it's worth having the inside of the barrel looked at to see if it's safe to load and fire, but if it has obvious problems it's probably best to save your money and just hang it on the wall

Couldn't agree more with NOLA_Ken here. That said, if banished to Wall Hanger status, give it a good cleaning, oiling etc so it looks better and preserves it.

 

[Retired Sarge]

Just came back to this post....ffuries said to have the barrel checked if you want to shoot it, and that's extremely important. before you have anyone look at it take the barrel out of the stock and check for pitting on the bottom, if there's deep rust pits it's probably not safe. But it's also important to check the stock for cracks, especially behind the barrel and check the fit of the barrel bands, if they are loose I wouldn't recommend shooting it. if everything is tight, and the lock works, (I had to do some work on mine to get the sear to engage correctly) then it's worth having the inside of the barrel looked at to see if it's safe to load and fire, but if it has obvious problems it's probably best to save your money and just hang it on the wall

Look what I have to try and decipher.......

٢٨٤٧ج translates as G or J 2847 so I'm assuming it's a serial number.

Haven't figured out the other one above it yet or the lined out text. Once I have it in hand it'll be somewhat easier. First chore translate from Egyptian/Arabic alphabet into the Latin alphabet, then translate into English.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Look what I have to try and decipher.......

٢٨٤٧ج translates as G or J 2847 so I'm assuming it's a serial number.

Haven't figured out the other one above it yet or the lined out text. Once I have it in hand it'll be somewhat easier. First chore translate from Egyptian/Arabic alphabet into the Latin alphabet, then translate into English.

View attachment 1875495

what kind of rifle?

 

[Retired Sarge]

what kind of rifle?

Egyptian Remington Model 1868 Rolling Block.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Thought I'd add a couple pics of the one I'm working on right now just to show how nicely they clean up. First pic is as it was when I got it, the next two are the lock after I wiped it down with some 4x steel wool and engine degreaser then boiled it in water for about half an hour. I just gave it a coat of gun oil after that. All the red rust and crud is gone and the nice original aged finish of the metal is showing. I did completely disassemble the lock and clean all the parts but it's not hard to do.

 

[Retired Sarge]

Thought I'd add a couple pics of the one I'm working on right now just to show how nicely they clean up. First pic is as it was when I got it, the next two are the lock after I wiped it down with some 4x steel wool and engine degreaser then boiled it in water for about half an hour. I just gave it a coat of gun oil after that. All the red rust and crud is gone and the nice original aged finish of the metal is showing. I did completely disassemble the lock and clean all the parts but it's not hard to do.

View attachment 1877201View attachment 1877198View attachment 1877199

Yours cleaned up nicely......Amazing what some time, elbow grease, oil, and 4 ought steel wool can do. I've seen some of these rifles that cleaned up so nicely (Like yours) that you wouldn't believe they were from the Nepal Horde.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Yours cleaned up nicely......Amazing what some time, elbow grease, oil, and 4 ought steel wool can do. I've seen some of these rifles that cleaned up so nicely (Like yours) that you wouldn't believe they were from the Nepal Horde.

The trick to it is to just go light enough with the steel wool and brake cleaner to take off the loose powdery rust. You want to leave it red when you boil it because the red will convert from the heat to a blue/black and it will actually be into the grain of the metal instead of just on the surface. Definitely avoid the temptation to break out a wire wheel or brush because once you take it to bare metal you basically need to start over with a rust bluing solution to get a decent finish

 

[Retired Sarge]

The trick to it is to just go light enough with the steel wool and brake cleaner to take off the loose powdery rust. You want to leave it red when you boil it because the red will convert from the heat to a blue/black and it will actually be into the grain of the metal instead of just on the surface. Definitely avoid the temptation to break out a wire wheel or brush because once you take it to bare metal you basically need to start over with a rust bluing solution to get a decent finish

Learned quickly about cleaning milsurps, when I did my research on my first one. I'm believer in oil (I use transmission fluid) and lightly scrubbing with 4 ought steel wool, which is the same you do. My aim has always been to remove crud, active rust if any, while leaving the patina and bluing in place, and putting a good coat of oil on the metal, again like you.

We both seem to have same techniques, attitudes, and beliefs on cleaning, yet preserving firearms. Granted a lot of people have these morals also. But I still surprises me, how many people scrub all the finish away, cerakote the metal, paint it and drop it in a plastic stock........

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Learned quickly about cleaning milsurps, when I did my research on my first one. I'm believer in oil (I use transmission fluid) and lightly scrubbing with 4 ought steel wool, which is the same you do. My aim has always been to remove crud, active rust if any, while leaving the patina and bluing in place, and putting a good coat of oil on the metal, again like you.

We both seem to have same techniques, attitudes, and beliefs on cleaning, yet preserving firearms. Granted a lot of people have these morals also. But I still surprises me, how many people scrub all the finish away, cerakote the metal, paint it and drop it in a plastic stock........

I'm a firm believer that a thing should show its honest age and history. Once you scrub all the history off of an old gun, it might as well be a reproduction.