Another olive jar and a jug

[Zodiacdiverdave]

Would anyone care to try and date these two objects, both were found in the same Harbour as the one in my earlier post. The jug we are not to sure about, it looks like it might be Mediterranean but this is the one the museum staff thought was Native Indian. I would like to add that the spout was originally longer and has broken off. The back side, of which I don't have a picture has a small hole worn in it from sitting on the bottom for so long. The Jar is no doubt an olive jar but we do not have any clue as to a region that it might be from.
Both these finds occurred years ago by members of our small but mighty group.

All opinions welcome,
ZDD

 

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[AUVnav]

ZDD,
A scale! Thanks.

Here is my opinion for what it is worth.
Roman Amphora, were a standard of measure at 26.2 liters, with Greek Amphora standard at 39 liters

At 17 inches tall, this would appear to be a decorative jar made in a configuration of an ancient container.
examples of modern reproductions for home use, even shipwreck effect!

As for the water jug, there arent many native north american pottery examples like this with handles, so it that appears to be middle eastern, in a relatively modern, configuration, the extended neck and terra cotta construction for cooling effects.


I would also note that these and the other pottery presented from the same area, have very similar construction materials, likely the same source.

 

[gus]

The page is from Pottery from Spanish Shipwrecks 1500-1800 by Mitchell W. Marken. Looks similar to the 1724 example. The caption which did not scan says Type C olive jar from changes from the 16th through the 18th centuries.

 

[signumops]

LMAO! Tell the museum staff to get out more often! Here you have the typical type C olive jar with the fluted bottom that I spoke of early on in your other thread on these items. The red paste would indicate that it is classified as perhaps early 1800 according to John Goggin in "Indian and Spanish Selected Writings". He has a chapter devoted to the Spanish Olive Jar. The book was published in 1964. In fact, Goggin gave your jar a special classifiication: late series type D. You found a great item! Better look around there in that area... sure to be more stuff like this. Question is "was the jar broken and tossed over the side?", or "did the jar get broken while being crushed in wreckage?"

Included a pic from page 252 of "The Rainbow Chasers In The Great Florida Treasure Hunt", by Tommy Gore and myself, showing Tommy holding a type C (white paste) recovered on shore after hurricane Wilma in 2005. This spot where the jar was found is a known wreck dating to the early 1600's. It (the wreck) was completely exposed in the early 1960s, but has been completely covered in the interim. Huge magnetometer signals there!

The jug with the handle and spout looks to be of the same material, probably same era.

 

[whydahdiver]

The tall olive jar is almost certainly what is called late style and dates from the late 18th century according to Kathleen Deagan in her great book " Artifacts of the Spanish Colonies of Florida and the Caribbean, 1500-1800." Smithsonian Press, 1987. The other vessel is more of a problem but I seriously doubt it is Native American, Deagan shows something similar but not exactly the same and refers to it as a botija.

WHYDAH diver

 

[ScubaFinder]

Yeah, that museum staff seems to be like a broken record, the Type C is far from a Native Indian artifact. Speaking of, that broken hole around the lip looks like the work of a crafty octopus if you ask me. I believe that olive jar went to the bottom in one piece, and was modified for easier entry / exit by said octopus. I've seen it several times, and it always looks the same as yours. We found the octopus still living in one of them.

The more clues you post, the more I think you may have a wreck there. I would certainly not rule it out anyways, and I'd be in the water in that area moving some overburden just to see what lies hidden beneath the substrate. Many ships went down in harbors while on anchor riding out a storm. Sure, many also dumped trash but I believe people are far to quick to brand a site as a ballast dump or trash pile. We excavated a pile in the Dominican Republic that had been assumed to be a trash pile for decades. Once we moved sand we started finding lots of ballast, then pottery shards, and eventually a French Vessel. The truth is, you don't know until you dig, and I'd be digging on that site to satisfy my curiosity.

Keep the pics coming!

Jason

 

[Zodiacdiverdave]

Thanks guys this is great info, who would have known that we could get artifacts like these up here. From all the great info you guys have provided and my knowledge of our history, my best guess is that these were brought over by the Basque or Portuguese but the origin seems to be Spanish. And they probably predate the settlement of Halifax in 1749.
The Basque and Portuguese were frequent visitors here in the 16th and 17 centuries. They came for the fishing but never did establish a permanent settlement. The Spanish did come by from time to time (we have a town called Spanish Ship Bay) but I think that that was in the 1800s.
As for the broken neck on the OJ, this could have happened while it was on the bottom but it wouldn't have been an octopus, we just don't have them here. It could have been from dredging or boat anchors or a lobster pot being dropped on it.
I would love to think that there was a shipwreck in our harbour that predates the earliest know wrecks in 1746 that were French. These were from the Duc d'Anville fleet. We have made well over 300 dives in this area but that doesn't say there is not one there, every year more stuff appears out of no where and we also have areas that have several feet of silt that could hide an entire fleet of ships so never say never.
Here is some pix of what we believe is a clay Olive Jar lid that one of our buddies that dive with us from time to time has found. He found this in a different location about 20 miles from Halifax.
Can any one confirm this and a possible date.
I am waiting for some more pix of another OJ that has been found by a member our team. If he is willing to post pix of it I will put them up as well.
Would love to get some feedback on the lid though.
Thank's guys,
ZDD

 

[signumops]

Looks to be actually solid stoney material rather than a piece of pottery. Wild guess would be a mortar bowl used for crushing stuff as in "pestle & mortar". On the other hand, it appears to be glazed, so it must be fire cast. This might actually be a Native item. Detachable lids for jars would usually have a loop hole of some sort so that the lid could be tied down to the jar, but, generally, they were plugged with organic material. Is the brown shaded area a rust, or an actual pigment, do you think?

 

[AUVnav]

ZDD,

Yes, thanks for keeping the stuff coming! (I promise I wont try to ID any pottery ever again)

I have a couple of thoughts;

First off, when diving, does anyone take any images of the artefacts in situ? That would certainly help determine of this is indeed an wreck, or perhaps a discard point.

Second, the artefacts you are showing, have very little growth of marine concretions or biologics...have there been cleaning attempts? Given that you stated that these were recovered by divers, I would assume the max depth of the adventuresome group, and that would lend to excessive concretions.

Third, in regards to the bowl, do you have any idea of the composition and/or weight of the aretfact? Is the oxide part of the artefact or a layer?

Thanks

 

[Darren in NC]

Cold Canadian waters produce cleaner artifacts.

 

[AUVnav]

While the area is cold and bitter, a forlorn life with the unit of volume being a Labatts tall boy...
With the Gulf Stream currents, I am not sure about the local water temperatures.

The West Coast waters of the US are very cold year round, and artefacts at divers depths, to 250', are always heavily encrusted.

 

[Zodiacdiverdave]

Looks to be actually solid stoney material rather than a piece of pottery. Wild guess would be a mortar bowl used for crushing stuff as in "pestle & mortar". On the other hand, it appears to be glazed, so it must be fire cast. This might actually be a Native item. Detachable lids for jars would usually have a loop hole of some sort so that the lid could be tied down to the jar, but, generally, they were plugged with organic material. Is the brown shaded area a rust, or an actual pigment, do you think?

Well that`s funny, this is one that the museum staff said was possibly a lid for an olive jar. Go figure.

The finder believes the piece is made from a clay but is very course, definately not from the clay around here. The dark areas around the bottom is staining from sitting in silt. The staining can be removed but the process may affect the clay in a negative manner. This is how it was found, there is little growth on our artifacts compared to ones found in warmer waters. We do however get a corallien growth on allot of items which is usually pink and turns white when it dies. On glass items this can easily be removed with vinegar. On some pix of the OJ you can see the round rings where sea anemones were attached but we removed them because they smell too bad after a week or so on the display case. LOL

Now here are some pix of the last OJ our group has recovered and I promise I wont ask you to date any more OJs (at least until we recover more).
This item was found in Newfoundland years ago (we would get arrested for sure if they found us recovering items like this, now) so it can not be linked to the ones that have been found in Halifax Harbour. It is a really nice find but we are not savy about dating these objects that are so rare in our waters, this is where we need the help of experts that see these more often then us.
Thanks again for everybodies input, it is all valued even if it is not what we want to hear.
ZDD

 

[Zodiacdiverdave]

While the area is cold and bitter, a forlorn life with the unit of volume being a Labatts tall boy...
With the Gulf Stream currents, I am not sure about the local water temperatures.

The West Coast waters of the US are very cold year round, and artefacts at divers depths, to 250', are always heavily encrusted.

Water temps here right now are at their coldest and are around 34-35* F at 80-90ft. This is where we find most our goodies. In the fall when the water is at it`s warmest it is around 60*F at that depth.
This time of year we dump out the Labatts and fill the can with Captain Morgans.
ZDD

 

[AUVnav]

Good Form!

Captain Morgans is rather enjoyable,
I make a grog...a cup of boiling water, 2 shots of Cpt Morgans and a tablespoon of honey...

at depth...priceless!

( I wont go into sat diving at this time!)

 

[VOC]

AUVnav

"The West Coast waters of the US are very cold year round, and artefacts at divers depths, to 250', are always heavily encrusted"

Could you please leave incorrect statements like this until you have gained a little more knowledge of your subject

 

[signumops]

Hey ZDD:
Carumba! What a super find! Down here in Florida we would be frothing at the mouth if we found a whole specimen like that last one... we find thousands of shards, occasionally we find a neck and rim intact, but everything else has been smashed to pieces. We do find a lot of those... pieces.
BTW, your posts are quite valuable, especially the OJ pics. You're not boring us at all. I'd love to see ALL the pottery your group has collected. On the other hand, I definitely won't be in your area looking first-person: too cold, so I will rely on you and your's to do all the good work. Thanks!

A very similar top of a jug of very similar size was found on the Gulf Coast on a wreck we know as the Emmanual Point wreck, dating to mid 1500's. Another, almost identical to it was recovered in a whole state in the DR dating to approximately the same period. However, I am basing this on the neck and rim style. This jug still may have originated centuries later.

Nay Capt. Morgan. Barbancourt will keep your fires well stoked.

 

[whydahdiver]

That last jar shown looks to be a Type B. see attached photo from p.134 Marken's book.

WHYDAH diver

 

[Zodiacdiverdave]

Hey ZDD:
Carumba! What a super find! Down here in Florida we would be frothing at the mouth if we found a whole specimen like that last one... we find thousands of shards, occasionally we find a neck and rim intact, but everything else has been smashed to pieces. We do find a lot of those... pieces.
BTW, your posts are quite valuable, especially the OJ pics. You're not boring us at all. I'd love to see ALL the pottery your group has collected. On the other hand, I definitely won't be in your area looking first-person: too cold, so I will rely on you and your's to do all the good work. Thanks!


A very similar top of a jug of very similar size was found on the Gulf Coast on a wreck we know as the Emmanual Point wreck, dating to mid 1500's. Another, almost identical to it was recovered in a whole state in the DR dating to approximately the same period. However, I am basing this on the neck and rim style. This jug still may have originated centuries later.

Nay Capt. Morgan. Barbancourt will keep your fires well stoked.

I guess we will have to start bringing up the shards now as well. Normally we see a broken piece of pottery or ships china we will leave it on the bottom unless there is some ships logo on it like the attached.
Yea the water can be cold but we dress for success. and the capt. Morgans helps too, but I will have to try that Barbancourt, I am always open for suggestions.
As for the OJ it would be great to get the date on it narrowed down to what century and a possible origin.
Thanks for all your help.
ZDD

 

[Zodiacdiverdave]

View attachment 623559 That last jar shown looks to be a Type B. see attached photo from p.134 Marken's book.

WHYDAH diver

Hey, I think you nailed it there WHYDAH, the second one or third or a very close match.
Thanks,
ZDD

 

[whydahdiver]

ZDD: in this case, the rim form is important to dating. I have attached another drawing from Marken.

What branch of military are you?