Ancient Snake Sword Letter Opener.. Age? Composition? Maker? Info Please

[franking]

Was hunting on an old Victorian Mansion site in Western Massachusetts. Dug an old bronze/gold (?) sword or dagger letter opener. Aprx 6" long. It has a snake head and other markings, but no letters or numbers. It easily left "gold looking" flakes on sand paper. Has a very very slight magnetism to it but barely anything. Gives a low VDI number on my Matrix M6 in the gold range. I tested it against a gold ring and it came up with close to the same numbers. House and land was owned by a very wealthy business man in the 1800's.. However the artifact looks much older than that. It looks like it was intentionally buried as a cache. Any ideas on maker, age, worth or the likes.. Thank you and happy hunting.

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Here's a picture of the identical opener I found. The close up of the handle I posted earlier was already cropped and did not have another one showing the very tip. If someone has the tools - time - and talent, maybe they can do an enlargement of the tip and see if it looks like a frog or something else. I tried doing this myself, but was unable to. (I have the time, but not the tools and talent).

SBB

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Earlier I suggested the letter opener in question might be Knights of Pythias related because of the Lily/Fleur-de-Lis symbol on the handle. Well, now I want to elimate that possibility because of the following, which is described as a true Knights of Pythias letter opener. And even though the exposure is bad, the description said the letters "F.C.B." were in the squareish part of the handle, which you can just barely see in the close up. "F.C.B." stands for Friendship~Charity~Beneveolence. Plus, it has a Knight for a grip.

Lastly ... The bottom picture is another, more detailed one I found of that other letter opener which was described as having either a frog or a serpent on the tip, plus the Fleur-de-Lis design. My next post, should there even be one, will be of something more definite and not just a bunch of random wanna-be's.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

I'm not very good at drawing in the Paint program (or any others), but, hopefully, you can see a little of what I'm seeing.

Also, the other photo (of the exact letter opener) is only 72 dpi - so, enlarging it, degrades the image way too much to get anything out of it. If you have a bigger, better picture of that, it would help.


Beth

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Beth ~

Thanks. I like your "frog(s)" You are better at photo-painting than I am. But I hope you like my "Fleur-de-Lis" anyway, which I noticed by rotating the image.

There is no better picture of that other opener, nor any additional information. It seems as if these types of letter openers are hard to date by "everyone."

So if the designs are in fact frogs and lilies as we believe they are ... What do Frogs ~ Lilies and Letter Openers have in common?

SBB

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

SBB,

We are a heck of an artistic team, aren't we


Beth

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Beth ~

Yeppers ... You Picasso ~ Me Rembrandt

Except for one small problemo ...

I think our so called frog is actually a full-image Fleur-de-Lis. At least according to my recent research and the pictures below it is. So until further notice I am eliminating the Frog part and sticking with the Sword/Lily part.

"Ribbit"



SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

If you take another look at the close up of the identical letter opener I found, you will notice that the "stamens" (the long, spindly stems) rise "between" the petals. And according to my latest research, that would indicate ...

In Florentine fleurs-de-lis, the stamens are always posed between the petals. This heraldic charge is often known as the Florentine lily to distinguish it from the conventional design.

Fleur-de-Lis Link: http://en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleur_de_lis#ref_ff

... which "suggest" the letter opener in question "might" be of Italian origin. Of course this is not conclusive, but I believe the placement of the stamens is intentional ... thus, in my opinion, a bona fide clue to suggest it was made in Italy.

As for the age/date? ... Based on my research, my best guess would be ...

Circa 1900 (1890 to 1910)

SBB

 

[IronSpike]

Cool find and ID

Here's one 'Italian' that didn't sell:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Italian-Dagger-Letter-opener-/230661700520

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

IronSpike ~

Good Job! That is real similar. It even has the 'stamens' on the Fleur-de-Lis. We should research "roroini" and see what comes up ...

[From e-bay]

"This may be a dagger, letter opener or replica? I don't have much info on it other than it says italy and roroini on the back. Appears it could be brass."

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I'm wondering if the e-bay seller misspelled "Roroini" I can't find anything with that spelling. Maybe it's someone's last name.

The cropped picture below is from e-bay. I can see the word 'ITALY' on top, but I can't quite make out the bottom word, which I am assuming is "Roroini."

Even a seemingly unrelated clue like this on a similar item can sometimes lead to an identification and date for the item in question.

SBB

 

[IronSpike]

Maybe 'Torrini'

http://www.theglobalstore.com/jewellery/silvergiftware-torrini4388.html

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

IronSpike ~

In my opinion, that's too close of a match to just be a coincidence. Meaning ... I think you nailed it with 'Torrini.' (At least in connection with the e-bay letter opener). And since coincidence it not one of my favorite words, I suspect the opener in question may be related as well.

[From Link]

Torrini has always created original design products, branded with a half clover with a spur, an ancient trademark registered in Florence in 1369. This sterling silver detailed creation is a letter-opener with the shape of an ancient sword.
• Length: 7"|18 cm
• Handmade in Florence, Italy.

~ * ~

I bet the opener in question had some marks on it originally, but are worn off now. In any event, I think 'Torrini' and 'Italy' are the best clues thus far, and worth taking a closer look at.

SBB

 

[High Plains Digger]

SBB: For all your accumulated knowledge, I am surprised you don't know what "heraldry" means. It is the coats of arms, or maybe more precisely, the features of a coat of arms. Everybody has one, according to the guy that "researches" you name and finds yours. Like every peasant in England had a coat of arms. Not bloody likely. But I learned something from you today: I did not know that the flor-de-lis had a Florentine version, let alone had stamens. The FDL was pretty common, especially in England but it seemed almost exclusivsely "French" to me. Maybe they surrendered it once to someone. I will have to look for a Florentine Flor-de-lis out there in the world.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

HPD ~

Actually, I do know what Heraldry means. I was making a little joke, in that it's a word you seldom hear and people who use it are probably not hillbillies at heart like myself. But this doesn't imply that hillbillies are not educated. But rather, among themselves they are more likely to say something like, "Oh, you mean my grandaddy's daddy's daddy?"
(Lol) ~ Another little joke of mine).

Speaking of Heritage, here's a link to the Torrini line that stretches back to the 1300s. But whether the sword shaped letter opener in question was made by this company or not, still remains to be seen. Perhaps a closer examination of it with a loupe might reveal a faint makers mark..

SBB

Torrini History Link: http://www.torrini1369.com/

And for the hillbillies among us, I recommend they click where it says "English." (Lol).

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

HPD ~

Here's a little present for you. It's an authentic 15th/16th century medieval belt buckle from the Balkans. Notice it has the Fleur-de-Lis design, but without the stamens. I wonder what an artifact like this is worth?

SBB

Balkans Wikipedia Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

That's cool!!



I wonder if it is significant that it has both a frog and a fleur de lis, or if it is meant to be intermingled, or what. Sure is an interesting piece.


Beth

 

[franking]

franking ~

I found these "possible letter openers." The one in the center appears to be very similar, if not identical to yours. Unfortunately there were no detailed descriptions with them, other than this which is copy/pasted ...

SBB

Yes SSB - the sword in the middle looks "almost" identicle, perhaps mine has worn so much as to make slight differences in a few of the design works. Thanks for posting these great letter openers and for the info and time you have provided. happpy hunting!

 

[franking]

Neat find.

I see part of the problem with identifying it. I see a frog at the tip, and a fleur de lis.

I also think it is definitely a letter opener, cast brass, maybe, and probably from around 1930-1945 (a big time for all sorts of letter openers, especially the dagger form).

Beth

Hi Beth - I am in agreement with the Fleur-de-Lis design. I aslo see the frog and I see the snake - I hope others see these things as well. Or are we just seeing things... lol The snake to me is more prominent on this piece, where other items in some of the posts look more froggy.

 

[franking]

Maybe 'Torrini'

http://www.theglobalstore.com/jewellery/silvergiftware-torrini4388.html

Hi IronSpike - great find and post - I am researching the possible Italian origination / design.

 

[franking]

Hey franking;

What did it look like when it came out of the ground? What does the rest of it look like? How long, and wide is it?

H_S

Hi H_S - I can remember the late time of day it was under the large pines - it was nearing dusk and visibilty was minimal. Once home I took to cleaning it. I wished I had taken a picture when it was fresh out of the ground. It looked tarnished, but not green or bluish.. It does seem to look like it contains brass. ( and some other metal )
Thanks for posting.. happy hunting out west!