✅ SOLVED An odd naval artillery shell

[Force_of_Iron]

Sorry for the duplication the first attempt had some issues with the pics I had trouble correcting. I started over.

Anyways....

This shell has four wires coming out of the cone. It has been fired so my guess is that at one time they stuck straight out.

What were they for. Were they some sort of impact detonator?

They seem quite fixed in place but with damage from firing and 111 years passing I suppose that could be expected.

Has anyone ever seen one? I have not.

Thanks

 

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[Force_of_Iron]

Interesting thread...

My WAG is anti-balloon projectile.

By 1909, observation balloons had been in use by armies around the world for half a century. In 1907, Britain flew it's first purpose-built military airship the Nulli Secundus (Second to None).

My friend that is truly the WAGiest of WAGS. That thing could bring down the starship Enterprise. Its a bit much for a balloon.

FYI the balloon shot I've seen is typically about 1 1/2 inch or abouts

 

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[Retired Sarge]

This one has driven me insane. I keep going back to google and trying different combinations of words, and everytime I end with nothing. I'm at a loss, you might need to check some of the cartridge collector sites and see if anyone can shed some light on this.

 

[DCMatt]

My friend that is truly the WAGiest of WAGS. That thing could bring down the starship Enterprise. Its a bit much for a balloon.

FYI the balloon shot I've seen is typically about 1 1/2 inch or abouts

Really? I don't have any expertise in artillery. I just find stuff on the internet and report it here...

By the early 20th century balloon, or airship, guns, for land and naval use were attracting attention. Various types of ammunition were proposed, high explosive, incendiary, bullet-chains, rod bullets and shrapnel. The need for some form of tracer or smoke trail was articulated. Fuzing options were also examined, both impact and time types. Mountings were generally pedestal type but could be on field platforms. Trials were underway in most countries in Europe but only Krupp, Erhardt, Vickers Maxim, and Schneider had published any information by 1910. Krupp's designs included adaptations of their 65 mm 9-pounder, a 75 mm 12-pounder, and even a 105 mm gun. Erhardt also had a 12-pounder, while Vickers Maxim offered a 3-pounder and Schneider a 47 mm. The French balloon gun appeared in 1910, it was an 11-pounder but mounted on a vehicle, with a total uncrewed weight of 2 tons. However, since balloons were slow moving, sights were simple. But the challenges of faster moving aeroplanes were recognised.[SUP][17][/SUP]By 1913 only France and Germany had developed field guns suitable for engaging balloons and aircraft and addressed issues of military organisation. Britain's Royal Navy would soon introduce the QF 3-inch and QF 4-inch AA guns and also had Vickers 1-pounder quick firing "pom-pom"s that could be used in various mountings.[SUP][18][/SUP][SUP][19][/SUP]
The first US anti-aircraft cannon was a 1-pounder concept design by Admiral Twining in 1911 to meet the perceived threat of airships, that eventually was used as the basis for the US Navy's first operational anti-aircraft cannon: the 3"/23 caliber gun.[SUP][20][/SUP]

Krupps Balloon Gun - 1910

 

[Force_of_Iron]

Really? I don't have any expertise in artillery. I just find stuff on the internet and report it here...



View attachment 1769557

Krupps Balloon Gun - 1910

ok, perhaps I was wrong :/ "That I've seen" is probably the key to this error

 

[DCMatt]

Have you determined whether this is an explosive shell? If it isn't explosive, I will concede that it is probably NOT an anti-balloon projectile.

According to "Modern Guns and Gunnery: 1910" it is "almost impossible" to perforate a balloon with an ordinary shell "on account of the difficulty of hitting it".[h=1][/h]

 

[DCMatt]

OK, guessing again...

Any chance there was something like a nose cone attached by the wires?

[FONT=&quot]Armor piercing capped (APC)
[/FONT][FONT=&quot] APCs are AP projectiles with a special soft-steel cap attached to the front of the projectile (Figure 21). The cap keeps the hard-steel projectile body from cracking when it hits the target, thereby increasing the effectiveness of the projectile.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]APC projectile: schematic (left) and 37mm M59 projectile {WW2}[/FONT]

 

[Force_of_Iron]

OK, guessing again...

Any chance there was something like a nose cone attached by the wires?

[FONT="]APC projectile: schematic (left) and 37mm M59 projectile {WW2}[/FONT]

No, not a chance of that. Totally smooth. Thanks though for breaking my block about what this is used for. I had only seen small balloon shot and didn't think large was ever thought of.

However, I've given a lot of thought to your anti balloon idea. It seemed impossible, because it is such a large projectile, but upon reflection does have some good arguments for it.

It's an experimental shell. If you were sitting at your desk, designing something to shoot a balloon down, what ideas could you come up with to deal with the problems associated with that task? What would you know about shooting down a balloon over open water. (naval)

A balloon could sight ships from a long distance or very high altitude. The range on that gun would be far and the farther reach might be able to bring it down. Lets go with something with gas.

Once a shell gets to the extremity of its range its velocity will be lower and unless a direct hit is made a conical shell will likely glance off. If a direct hit is made it may just put some neat holes in the balloon. The target will keep on going or just descend back to the earth in whatever fashion it could taking its information back down with it.

What if we put some heavy gauge wires at 45^ angles on the cone? If it reaches the target at low velocity it will penetrate and rip a larger hole in the canvas. Perhaps it will wrap a large section into it. If it makes it through perhaps it will be slowed enough to do most of its damage on the opposite side dragging though it and making a large rip.

Its a pretty decent theory that describes that shell and fits with its condition.

The shell has been fired, yet it is completely undamaged. The cone and the body don't have a scratch. If it went into a balloon at long range and got wrapped up in it that would be the case. Perhaps this is the one that worked and the inventor kept it as a memento. More likely this one did not work though as the wires are flattened against the cone. It seems that it never became any sort of approved ordinance. I imagine in the end the theoretical shell did just as well as what they already had so they never used it.

This seems to be a possibility. When I think naval shells of that day I tend to think only in terms of steel monsters slugging it out. This was perhaps a tentative step into the new realities.

Still can't get that plug out.

 

[DCMatt]

Your last post is pretty much the same logic I used before my first WAG.

Other thoughts... They made noise? Maybe not plausible for Naval artillery but on land, artillery was as much a psychological/terror weapon as a destructive one. I've spoken with WWII vets who took fire from the dreaded German 88's. They said the sound was enough to scare the hell out of you and you never knew if that shell was going to land on you or not. All you could do was get in a hole and try to not $h!t your pants.

I also considered some kind of tracer device but I have no idea how that might have worked.

 

[Force_of_Iron]

I got a template of the span of the plug and I'm fabricating a spanner wrench for it. Should know something soon. Maybe someone filled it with old money then galded the plug for safe keeping. I'll be rich. Then again maybe I'll blow myself up. Remember to like this thread as a memorial to me if you see something in the news.

 

[Retired Sarge]

I got a template of the span of the plug and I'm fabricating a spanner wrench for it. Should know something soon. Maybe someone filled it with old money then galded the plug for safe keeping. I'll be rich. Then again maybe I'll blow myself up. Remember to like this thread as a memorial to me if you see something in the news.

Here's hoping you don't blow yourself up......

 

[DCMatt]

From Scientific American magazine - February 1915:

Anti-zeppelin artillery shell.



Not exactly the same as your shell but works on the same premise.

 

[Force_of_Iron]

How cool is that!!!!

That's it!

This shell is earlier than this conception so is probably the first stabs at the principle. My guess is they had all different types of fixed wire lengths and started clipping them down until they got the length short enough to stop affecting the trajectory.

There was no length short enough to not affect it so they started thinking about this deployed style arrangement.

Can't like your post enough DC

I guess this shell is a good piece of early aviation history.

 

[A2coins]

Whatever it is that's freakin cool and has to be very rare

 

[Force_of_Iron]

Plug is out. Had no charge. Will mark this thread as solved.

If I can fiquer how to do it.

Thanks for the conversation everyone!!!!