An example of asking "can I metal detect?"

[Tom_in_CA]

I read a story of a lady trying to sue a retail store. A retail store had run an ad in the newspaper that the first 100 persons to come into the store, on a particular day, would get concert tickets to some upcoming popular concert (it was some sort of radio station giveaway gimmick promotion thing). So a lady called the store, and asked if it was ok if she stakes out a spot there, on the sidewalk, in front of the store, the night before. The store told her something to the effect of:

"no, we don't allow camping or staking out spots, etc... The event starts tomorrow, not tonight".

So the next morning, the lady got there exactly the opening time of the store .... ONLY to see that an entire line of people were already there. And it was quite evident, that the persons at the head of the line had indeed been there many hours (if not over the entire night), so they could be the first in-line when the store opened. As evidenced by their lawn chairs, etc.... So the lady complained that she had specifically called ahead, and been told she couldn't do that. The store had nothing really to tell her, ... except that they can't stop what people do, on their own accord. This made no sense to the lady, because it sounded like a direct contradiction to what she was told. So she got no concert ticket, and was threatening some sort of legal action against the radio station or store or something.

Hmmm, is anyone else seeing the moral of this story? It kinda reminds me of well-intentioned md'rs, who go waltzing into city halls, park's depts, school offices, etc... asking "can I metal detect?" While it *sounds* like the logical thing to do (afterall, you can't be too safe), yet you can get odd-ball answers, that may or may not even apply, or be applicable, or no one may ever have cared or noticed (till you asked).

 

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[cudamark]

Well I was just stating my opinion, all of you make valid points, and I respect your opinions in that matter, was not looking to start an argument, just adding my thoughts.
There are a lot of different reasons I try to ask if detecting is allowed or not, least of which is whether or not, I could get into trouble.
I really love talking to people, and in doing so, going and asking about policy at say public parks offices and such, has opened many doors for me by curious people about the hobby. Some of the best finds I have ever had came this way, by being asked if I could find somebody's lost childhood toy or what not, that opened even more doors to me.
I don't know about the rest of you, but when somebody invites me to come search their property with a beautiful Victorian mansion sitting on it, I don't hesitate to accept their offer.
Then again, asking HAS closed doors to me as well, when I could have just walked in and started swinging my coil.
Guess it comes down to damned if you do or damned if you don't.

Mike

And we appreciate your opinion. We're not trying to condemn anyone here for their thoughts. We're just trying to make you think about the consequences of your actions. Maybe there's something you haven't thought of that will change your mind and make you realize that there is a better way. I've gotten tips about good hunting spots from a whole variety of people but I can't think of a single time it came from a government employee. Maybe I just subconsciously bock out those encounters! If your asking only effected YOU, I'd say, sure, go ahead and ask away. The problem is, by your asking, it effects us all. It brings the whole activity of metal detecting to the forefront with whoever you asked (and maybe their coworkers and bosses) where they may never have given a thought about it before. I think most of us would like to keep it that way.

 

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[BC1969]

Interesting reply Tom, you made me have to think about some of your points.
Cudamark, your reply is a lot easier to digest.
I will have to admit, the point you made about asking not only affects me but others as well. That really does not affect me or you really in my circumstance, because I am only asking private land owners, only 3 times have I ever asked to hunt a public location, and that's only because I was told/overheard that a new policy was in effect at those locations, so I asked for clarification, since I for one cannot really afford to be ticketed and or arrested or have my detector seized, they could try, but it wouldn't end well for anybody.
And Tom it was not me that made the hole, I do not make holes, never met a coin yet that I couldn't get out of the ground using a foot long flat blade screwdriver and only making a 3 inch slice in the turf.

Mike

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

..........I was told/overheard that a new policy was in effect at those locations, so I asked for clarification, since I for one cannot really afford to be ticketed and or arrested or have my detector seized, they could try, but it wouldn't end well for anybody...

Mike, in this location where you heard such a rumor, it was and is entirely within your own power and ability, to look up to see if such a rule or law really existed, that said such a thing. All municipal codes and laws are "no secret". They're available for public viewing. And nowadays often even with the click of a mouse in a lot of cities. Thus no need to go "seek clarification". Just look it up for yourself.

Because even though you may carefully phrase the question to be asking "is there any laws regarding metal detectors?" (which you would THINK puts the burden-of-proof on them to cite any rule, if it really existed), Yet unfortunately there's ample cases of some desk-bound clerk answering in ways like this: "yes but you can't dig" (even though you never made mention of "dig"), or "we would prefer you didn't" (as if you'd just asked mother-may-I), or all sorts of wierd answers. There was even one city clerk (true-story) who fielded such a question. And when she tried long and hard, realized that there was nothing in city code that addressed metal detectors. So guess what happened?? The next city council meeting it was on the agenda to add to park rules! True story!

And really Mike, can you cite for us ANY example of a md'r being "ticketed" "arrested" and "detector seized" for a place that doesn't have a rule or law forbidding metal detectors? If you can cite me any such incident, I will send you a crisp $20 bill! The worst you might get, is someone with their panties in a wad who thinks you're going to leave a mess. Fine, pay lip service, and choose lower traffic times next time. But no, I can think of no such arrests and seizures for run-of-the-mill parks where no rule exists. If a cop or gardener wants to morph something ELSE to apply (disturbing earthworms or something), they're welcome to, and you will thus have been "appraised". Fine. But no, to "get arrested" you'd have to thumb your nose at that cop or gardener, and continue defiantly right in front of them or something.

 

[BC1969]

Man Tom are you a lawyer ? Cause you would be an excellent trial attorney.
And yes I do happen to know of somebody back in the 80's who had their detector seized by a national park ranger, even though he was NOT on federal land but right next to it, and no I don't want your money.
And it wouldn't be citing for US, just you, since you seem rather hell bent on trying to convince others that their beliefs and morals, are not up to your standards, sorry if I disappoint you, but to be honest, opinions are just opinions, sure I value your opinion, and you have made some valid points, but that won't change what I believe in.

And to the other guy..vacation ? What's that ?
Lol I am just poor white trash by most peoples standards, I drive a 16 year old car, I get shut-off notices every other month, and most of the time in any given month, I have to decide between taking my meds or eating something other than boxed Mac & cheese.
So no you won't see me anytime soon, unless you live in Michigan.

I wish I did not have such morals sometimes, finding a heavy gold class ring, that would be a huge windfall for somebody like me, If I cannot find the owner, then I turn it to the police, will somebody there take it home with them ? Probably, but that's not on my shoulders, or worth the hit to my karma...
And that's all I have to say about this topic.
Have a nice day, and Happy Hunting.

Mike

 

[cudamark]

Interesting reply Tom, you made me have to think about some of your points.
Cudamark, your reply is a lot easier to digest.
I will have to admit, the point you made about asking not only affects me but others as well. That really does not affect me or you really in my circumstance, because I am only asking private land owners, only 3 times have I ever asked to hunt a public location, and that's only because I was told/overheard that a new policy was in effect at those locations, so I asked for clarification, since I for one cannot really afford to be ticketed and or arrested or have my detector seized, they could try, but it wouldn't end well for anybody.
And Tom it was not me that made the hole, I do not make holes, never met a coin yet that I couldn't get out of the ground using a foot long flat blade screwdriver and only making a 3 inch slice in the turf.

Mike

I guess I'm a bit confused. I got the impression that your posts were in regard to hunting public parks and such. Seems to me you were talking about signs or lack thereof and talking to park personnel, etc. On private property you definitely need permission or you might be cited for trespassing so if you thought I was giving you a hard time about that, I apologize. I mainly want to inform members here that even people in charge of a particular public area you want to hunt, don't necessarily know anything about the laws regarding that area, therefor they can't clarify anything.....they only give their opinion and in some cases completely muddy the waters about it. If you look it up yourself, you'll know for sure without someone else's personal bias involved....except your own!

 

[Ism]

Man Tom are you a lawyer ? ..............................................

So no you won't see me anytime soon, unless you live in Michigan.

Have a nice day, and Happy Hunting.

Mike

Now I'm worried!

 

[BC1969]

Worried ? Of what ?
Yeah Cuda I was only talking about private property, there is only 1 public park I hunt at and its next to the place I grew up at.
The kind of signs I was referring to are the no hunting or trespassing kind.
Sorry for the confusion, and as far as asking at parks offices, I do that so I can make friends, and get in the door at the planning and zoning offices...gotta love them tear outs.

Don't worry about me, it's the redhead you have to worry about

Mike

 

[maipenrai]

Back to the woman that wanted the free tickets. She was angry, that everyone that broke the rules, got tickets, and she didnt. Well, what if when the store opened in the morning, and the management said, "you all cheated, so no one gets tickets!" What would have happened then, a riot, broken windows, burnt down store? Whatever they told her, would be wrong, so just live with it. Just as someone complaining that outsiders got the got the good pickings, Just live with it! We always see things that are not quite right, but complaining about those things may make even a worse problem, like beaches closed all year to metal detecting, or a stupid permit system, that just makes money for the gov. Someone higher up may just say, "there are just too many problems with these detectorest, lets just keep them all out!"

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Back to the woman that wanted the free tickets. She was angry, that everyone that broke the rules, got tickets, and she didnt.....

Well, I think you're missing the point of this. The point is that although the lady SAW it as a "rule", yet was it really? Let me give you an example: If you knocked on my door at my house, and said: "hi, do you mind if I stand here, on the sidewalk, in front of your house, all night long and stare at your front door?" I might be inclined to think you're nut, and tell you "no, I don't want someone standing here all night long in front of my house" But odds are, if someone did that, I wouldn't even know, or care (nor could I stop them).

The case of this lady, ... I would say it was a case of no one cared .... UNTIL she asked. Is that a "rule" ? I dunno. Depends on how you define "rules" I suppose.

There was a fellow who moved to my city in the early 1980s. He "took it upon himself" to go down to city hall and ask if metal detecting was allowed in our main downtown park. Someone there told him "no". He appears as a guest to our next club meeting. Sat watching in the audience as the show & tell portion of the club meeting un-folded. One fellow holds up an old silver coin and says: "found in central park". The newbie raises his hand and says "I thought metal detecting wasn't allowed in the parks here?" A few of us old-timers turned around, looked at him, and said "since when?" and "who told you this?". That's when he told us how he'd gone down and asked (since he was new to our city). But oddly, you could (and still can) detect till you're blue in the face, and no one cares (as long as you're not a nuisance in some way). I don't know how he phrased the question, and I don't know how the answer was cast, but ...... you get the picture.

Interestingly, several other md'rs in the room at this meeting, when they heard this new fellow's info, thought "oh no, there's a [new] rule that we can't detect the parks!" Whereas others in the room chuckled and said "no one cares, and I'm not going to stop" (it never even occured to any of us that you needed to "ask", as the parks had always simply been detected, for as long as anyone remembered!).

So you tell me, in the case of this newbie finding such an answer, does that constitute a "rule" now? Some people in our club actually thought we should all collectively, as a club, go to city hall to "seek clarification" or "fight this" , etc... While others thought "nonsense, you're just going to open up a can of worms that needs their 'pressing attention' ", and no one really cares, so just leave it alone and don't ask dumb questions.

So I guess it all depends on what a persons definition of "rule" is, eh?

 

[Prestigitation Digger]

I read a story of a lady trying to sue a retail store. A retail store had run an ad in the newspaper that the first 100 persons to come into the store, on a particular day, would get concert tickets to some upcoming popular concert (it was some sort of radio station giveaway gimmick promotion thing). So a lady called the store, and asked if it was ok if she stakes out a spot there, on the sidewalk, in front of the store, the night before. The store told her something to the effect of:

"no, we don't allow camping or staking out spots, etc... The event starts tomorrow, not tonight".

So the next morning, the lady got there exactly the opening time of the store .... ONLY to see that an entire line of people were already there. And it was quite evident, that the persons at the head of the line had indeed been there many hours (if not over the entire night), so they could be the first in-line when the store opened. As evidenced by their lawn chairs, etc.... So the lady complained that she had specifically called ahead, and been told she couldn't do that. The store had nothing really to tell her, ... except that they can't stop what people do, on their own accord. This made no sense to the lady, because it sounded like a direct contradiction to what she was told. So she got no concert ticket, and was threatening some sort of legal action against the radio station or store or something.

Hmmm, is anyone else seeing the moral of this story? It kinda reminds me of well-intentioned md'rs, who go waltzing into city halls, park's depts, school offices, etc... asking "can I metal detect?" While it *sounds* like the logical thing to do (afterall, you can't be too safe), yet you can get odd-ball answers, that may or may not even apply, or be applicable, or no one may ever have cared or noticed (till you asked).

Its pretty typical for a low level pion to take the little bit of power they have and say "no". It makes them important and powerful for about 2 minutes. I have had township clerks deny me simple information like the number to the local historical society after asking to detect local parks and them saying "no". "I don't care who you think your gonna talk to, your not digging up our park". This attitude is endemic to our society because so many of these pions are truly powerless and told what to do by bigger pions every day.

The good thing is township clerk is a elected position. So that 2 minute phone call may have cost them the next election. Unfortunately people aren't that smart...look what gets voted in twice in (DC)District of Criminality!