Aluminum and gold jewelry: What's the trick?

[Tom_in_CA]

....) .. that can folks help to sort "normal tabs" from gold rings ..which is exactly what folk want to do --dig less trash and find more treasure....

Then you are speaking of "notch discrimination" (even if achieved by mean of progressive knob, versus full-scale TID screens/tones). And this "notch discrimination" method (aka "ring enhancement programs"), have been around since the very beginning.

All they are is isolating "commonly recurring" types of trash. Round tabs in the case of your example. And "notching" those out. But this is not telling aluminum apart from gold. It's only playing with commonly recurring aluminum objects. Sure, you'll "dig less trash", but it's not telling aluminum apart from gold.

Rest assured that you will miss some gold rings this way. And rest assured that if you get into a junky blighted park where aluminum wads and slaw abound, you will still go bonkers .

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

..... And it is date night tonight, so please be patient.

Huh ?? Who's more important ? We md'rs reading here, or your date night with your honey ? Sheeesk, of all the nerve. What are we ? Chopped liver ?

haha, just kidding. Have a fun "date", and reply when ready

 

[Roger Mn.]

I own the Minlab E-Trac and a lot of the aluminum i find i can tell what it is going to be before i dig it. The sound and the numbers while hunting in coin mode and the sensitivity turned up to 30. I go to all metal mode with full screen and the sounds and numbers tell me it's a pull tab or bottle cap.
I hunted a real trashy spot at the park and i know it is full of pull tabs and i found this 14-k Art carved gold wedding ring at 8 inches deep.
By the sound i knew it was not a pull tab or aluminum chewed up scrap.It was a high tone just like a silver dime would give you.
I believe the Minlab E-Track is the best detector i ever owned. The Whites DFX would be second.
A new person would not be able to figure out the sounds and numbers right away. They will need a lot of practice.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

..... By the sound i knew it was not a pull tab or aluminum chewed up scrap.It was a high tone just like a silver dime would give you.....

You realize this is not a learned-technique that was telling "aluminum apart from gold" right ? In the case you speak of, this was merely a case of the particular gold-ring in question reading *above* the TID of tabs.

In other words, a form of "notching". Which is not to be confused with telling aluminum and gold apart.

As for the "chewed aluminum" (can slaw), mention in your post: This brings up another interesting discussion. Because not only would we be talking conductivity in that case, we'd also be talking "shape" in that case. Because a lot of can-slaw could be elongated shape. Rather than round and concise like a ring tends to be. And also can slaw can often be tones that don't lock on, (ie.: TID's that bounce), because of the inconsistencies in the thickness of the bent up masses.

But I would argue that that's still not telling "aluminum apart from gold", because there are most certainly smaller can slaw fragments, that got folded over concisely, that can exactly mimic gold rings. Or conversely, some sort of gold jewelry item (elongated pendants, fat bracelets lying in a wad, etc...) that could exactly mimic can-slaw. And I would venture to say that some gold rings won't lock on with consistent TID , because of irregularly shaped "crowns" to them, or a tilt in the ground how-they-lay, etc.....

 

[Roger Mn.]

Not all gold rings will ring up the same TID and have a good tone were aluminum sounds different. I can go over 100's of aluminum targets at these trashy parks and i don't have to dig because of the tones and i do rely on the numbers also and were it pops up on the screen.
Now if i was to use my Minlab SDC 2300 in these parks i would have to dig everything.

 

[Deft Tones]

Hi, Tom.

Thanks for the humor and your patience with me. It get's busy with family obligations this time of year. We enjoyed a nice dinner followed by some drinking and dancing late into the night. You might have been with us while I was at times alone at the table, thinking occasionally of our conversation here.

You’re really making me think. I appreciate that because I want to ensure that I am truthful to what I’ve experienced. I hope I do not mislead anyone with a poor choice of words. I do not claim any special knowledge unavailable to anyone else. It’s true there are no tricks except tricks. In metal detecting I only care about enjoyment and results. I enjoy the hunt more than the find. I find I want results that are pleasing.

A. Now we’re down to the human factor it would seem. The psychological element.

I know exactly what you’re talking about. The various biases we humans tend to exhibit are difficult to identify in ourselves and easy to identify in others. We might even think we are immune from certain bias, and that is the blind spot bias. You and I both have many biases. Anyone who thinks has biases. I’m not going to enumerate them, as there are many, and a disagreement between us on any subject is rooted in them, but I want to address the most critical aspect of the subject for our purposes – cognitive bias requires thought.

Thought requires words. Words are merely labels. On their own words have no reality and are merely vibrations. We interpret the squawks and grunts we humans make as words, assuming that we understand the language; otherwise sound remains unintelligible vibrations that strike our ears. This is all a very quick summary to get us on the same page, so to speak. Please bear with me as I seem to stray with a simple explanation directly from my life experience.

I practice Zen. Long before I purchased my first metal detector I was practicing Zen. Among the ignorant, Zen in practice is often thought of as a religion, and I suppose there are aspects that seem that way due to the rituals, and some people may attempt to incorporate it into their existing religious practices, but in essence, it’s not mystical or religious, it’s experiential. It is the religion of no religion. Zen isn’t concerned with beliefs, except how to drop them.

One major part of Zen practice is the cessation of our thoughts; to get to and remain in a place before words can form. No judgment, no expectations, no words.
This isn’t the place to get deep into Zen, nor do I wish to, or can I even do so via words, but I mention it only because it’s linked, and I know the importance of having the right state of mind. The right mind washing dishes, or the right mind in combat, or the right mind in competition, the right mind in any activity we do if we want to perform and be our best. That right mind is called the observing mind.

Yes, you have two minds.

EXERCISE FOR PROOF

It is known that people that meditate have different brain activity and more brain activity in certain areas than those who do not meditate. Even those new to meditation , and in very short time periods, show increased neural activity in regions of the brain that were essentially dormant, or had shown little activity before. Science has recently been discovering what Zen practitioners (and other meditators) have always known, there is something to it… it’s not just some Woo BS. I understand (saw it on TV news program) that the USMC has recently been embracing and encouraging a Zen style meditation for soldiers…because there are results! Undeniable results according to those soldiers who practice. Western psychology has begun embracing what was long practiced in the East, although for different goals. Even though the mechanism is not well understood scientifically, the results are easily verifiable by anyone without severe brain injury.

Skeptic? It’s easy to try out on yourself and it’s not going to hurt you…well, perhaps your ego. At worst it may seem to waste your time. It’s so easy it’s extremely difficult.

So, let me describe, if I am even able to communicate it, what that mind is like for me while metal detecting, mentally prepared for peak performance, and searching for gold at the top of my game. I cannot maintain this mental state continually while detecting, but fortunately, to see results one does not have to.

Perhaps there was a time you were listening to music you’ve never heard before, and if you haven’t listened to it all, Antonio Vivaldi’s The Four Seasons is one of my favorites. Anyway, the best way to listen to music is to stop thinking about everything but the sound coming into your ears at the moment it strikes your eardrum.…no, actually, don’t even think about sound, just hear. Shut off the brain chatter, if one can, and hear completely with a silent, non-judging mind. Listening is active, hearing is passive. HEAR! It’s an important distinction that needs to be emphasized. HEAR!

This is the part of the state of mind I wish to maintain as long as I am sweeping the coil. While searching or investigating with multiple coil sweeps and angles, I still try to maintain this state. Do I always maintain this every moment I am searching? Hell, no. Just like everyone else I have random thoughts like, “did I take meat out of the freezer for tomorrow?”, or "I need to pee", but I’ll immediately recognize this from practice and then guide my mind back to stillness, just observing. If you do not control your thinking mind your efforts will be more difficult. If you have no tradition, no experience, or practice in learning to control your mind, then this is difficult to do, but it is not impossible! Just like a bodybuilder lifts weights to build his muscles, various meditations build “muscles” of the mind. Again, this is something a reader is free to confirm for themselves. Science confirms it. Your own experience can confirm it too

When I get a tone that causes me to think, I’ll tend to dig it. Usually the thought is a quick one like, “odd”, or “different”. Sometimes it may be a familiar tone and my experience triggers a thought of "penny". It’s similar to how if you listen to a familiar song you’ve heard a million times, and should one, two, or three notes get distorted, or off key you immediately would notice. That is the kind of difference I want to hear. Not in a negative aspect, more a positive aspect when the coil passes over gold. When many of the notes (trash) sound similar, like a badly recorded record, then when a clear note appears it’s very evident.

So, I had to think and reflect before posting again so I can continue to challenge my own experience. If I get a tone, there can’t really be bias until I associate a word to the tone. Without thought a tone is simply vibrations striking my ear. With many similar vibrations striking my ear, when a good one, or should I say an unusual tone appears out of the ordinary, it is at that exact point I begin to think. Often, when it’s safe to do so, I literally will close my eyes and slowly walk a line, swinging while hearing what is playing in my ears. I’m hearing all the birds of a forest at once. This is one aspect of increasing success identifying gold jewelry I consider very key, and I could devote 10,000 more meaningless words to it without effort.

That’s probably the best I can answer you without being face to face. I talk faster than I type, unfortunately, and this could be a book.

B. The instrument tests

To me these tests are not so much important to prove what I am hearing, but to prove that the signal the machine sends to your headphones is not consistent for the same tone across multiple materials. It’s also tends to illustrate that resolution is somewhat important.

It simply leaves (or had left) me with a question. If one tone has two slightly varying responses, can one hear it?

Perhaps that depends on the resolution of a listener’s ear. That's the only need for equipment other than our ears. To assist in reaching a common baseline.

I don’t have time at the moment to get into C. My kids are begging me for a Nerf war… duty is calling.

I am formulating thoughts to get to it soon. I’ll address your issues within C. by briefly mentioning statistics, probability, and game theory - because that’s what works too.

Until then keep your ears to the ground, and I look forward to any response you may have.

 

[digger27]

And if anyone ever tries to tell you that "gold rings sound different than aluminum" (by virtue of "tones", "sounds", "stable TID", "softness", etc....) , then here's how you put an immediate end to such claims: Simply take that person out to the nearest blighted junky inner city park, and turn them loose. See how many gold items they find, and how much aluminum they can leave behind. You will notice their claims go silent, and you hear nothing but chirping crickets then.

Laughable.
I am not silent, I will never be silent and I have contridicted you for years every time you post this ridiculous garbage because it is not true.
Keep telling everyone to keep away from blighted parks and only hunt beaches for goldlike you have done forever because you think it's not worth your time so it stands to reason it's not worth anyone else's time.
Tell people again about that park where you and your buddies culled it layer by layer and found things but in your hallowed opinion the amount of trash you had to dig to do it again made it a waste of your precious time after all was said and done to attempt it.
You got that copious amount of crunched data and all those numbers, you flaunt them and seem proud of them so whip them out again...I can use a good laugh as I always do when you present them as gospel...always will.
I guess you never held a Tesoro and swung it over a nice big fat gold class ring and listened to that unique tone that no other metal will make it emit, not aluminum, not coins, nothing.
Once you hear it you know it and will always remember it, I know this for a fact.
Not all sizes of gold but the big stuff definitely and I know this for a fact.
What, never used a Tesoro and found one so you never heard that kind of tone?
Well do what you always do and tell everyone within earshot that it is not possible, it does not exist.
What did you call it, a trick, selective memory, yea that's it...that's all it is.
You have not experienced it so of course it's not real.

I love wandering into blighted parks and can slaw filled trashy sites to look for gold, always have and you know what, that is just the way I like to do this hobby.
I love the challenge and listening to the sound of the tones isn't the only way to pick out gold either, oh, I'm sorry...you said watching the VDI numbers and nothing else will help you in this area a either, the only way to do it is dig it all.
I guess you are the God of gold hunting in your mind, but I doubt a real God would think in such narrow terms and be a little more open to consider that maybe, just maybe, there might be something that you don't know, something that you might be able to learn that is new and might even be helpful in your own hunting career.
Yea, doubtful.
You have been doing this so long you pretty much know the truth, the real deal and that would be fine with me if you just kept it to yourself except you keep spreading this theory and rules for hunting everywhere you can and there are some that actually might believe you...a newbie that might have fun hunting trashy parks, a person that might want to learn a few things that might work to give them a better shot at gold, not Jedi mind tricks but actual information about tips and some techniques that really could work in real life, not in your life of course because none of it will actually work for sane, logical right thinking people like yourself, only dreamers could have any success with them and that would only be an illusion.

For the 15th time I am going to state this because it is clear you will never learn, you just don't have the capacity to understand and I can see now you never will.
You don't get to choose how to enjoy this hobby for anyone but yourself.
To tell others what a waste of time it is to do it in a way you never would, to warn them off going to sites that you wouldn't spend a second of your time in, to make fun of others that would dare attempt to learn new things that you don't believe in or worse of all, fight to the death others that disagree with your opinions to the point of insanity is just a huge disservice to this hobby and everyone in it.
You have been doing this a long time and you have been very successful at it, you have helped out many and have shared some great advice and I give you props for all that and I do have great respect for your positive attributes but you have a blind spot, a big one, and if I have to call attention to it on every forum on every post that I see you spreading this misinformation I will...I will be happy to do it.

I have gone into some of the trashiest, aluminum, can slaw, pop top and tab filled parks you have ever seen and loved it and found gold in many of them...in the ones I didn't I never regretted trying and had a blast in every one.
I have heard a singular tone that told me I was swinging over gold in my life, it happened and it rocked me back on my heels when I did, it was real and I was right.
I have learned my detectors well enough to notice behavior that helps me target and dig better treasure and avoid about 80% of the trash I come across, gold included, and from out of the kind if trashy sites you warn so many away from.
Don't believe me, I'm sure you don't and you never did and I doubt you ever will but I have data too, my own numbers and hours upon hours under my belt swinging and having a fantastic time in a kinds of sites and conditions.
I never let anyone dictate how I should do his hobby or where or how I should hunt or what success levels makes it all worth it for me, I visited a ton of them with an open mind and figured it out for myself over the years.
I learned ways to find all kinds of great treasure in most of them and that includes gold that you seem to think is so impossibly hard to find that I must be hallucinating if I consider myself successful at it.
Well I do, and many others on several forums do to and I have also spread the word on tips, techniques, site choices and methods about gold hunting which is pretty much the exact opposite of your theories and opinions and many listened and also found gold...and then thanked me for it.
I guess their minds were playing tricks on them to.
All that shiney stuff I have gathered in my travels in my life is real, real enough that I can touch it, wear it, give it to my wife to wear and sell it to finance even more tools to have even more great fun in this hobby.
You believe what you want, tell anybody anything you want about hunting for gold in the dirt as is your right, something it is obvious you are not good at in the slightest, but so will I because I have another different opinion and always will.

 

[Muddyhandz]

Great discussion going on here people!
Let's bring a "tones only" guy to the party who uses a "zing" type detector that offers a ton of audio information and I have amazed many hunters at how I can i.d. a target accurately based on the tones my machine gives.
After 30 years of heavy hunting, I try to keep the hobby fun and prefer relic hunting mostly as I don't mind digging up "old junk" as opposed to modern crap.
At least you can take old junk to the scrap yard or examine it to figure out what it was from or even collect such things but what can you do with modern junk? Yuck!
Not fun digging new rubbish at all.
When I am in the mood to go clad hunting, (while listening for gold) I have my method that keeps me interested. Now, this is for turf hunting as I have a different method at the beach (or places that have sand) and I will dig ALL non-ferrous targets at the beach. Even floating foil must be examined as not to miss a fine gold chain. O.K. back to the turf.....

Because my detector gives a whole array of tones (more like changes in pitch) I can walk into any place and pop up all the nickles, dimes, quarters, loonies, and twoonies (nickle or steel based composition) and leave all the pennies behind. The higher denominations give a solid "clack" type signal where as the surface pennies give a double beep.
Pull-tabs sound the same as pennies except they disc-out at a certain number. Beaver tails are a bit bigger of a signal that also disc-out.
Bear with me as I'm getting to the point real soon.

When I started detecting at 13 and dug my first modern penny, I heaved all over the place and to this day, I hate pennies with a passion! I'm so thankful we no longer produce them.
With that in mind, I don't care if I miss a small silver ring. They're a dime a dozen. I've bought 100's of silver rings at garage sales for next to nothing and I don't waste my time digging pennies to acquire them.
Of course I will dig penny signals if it's down a few inches or more because I don't mind old pennies, silver coins or old silver rings, etc.
Now, when I get a penny signal that is "expanded" I dig it because it could be a chunkier silver ring which I don't mind but the down side is when there's two or more pennies together, the signal is the same.
This long explanation leads up to the gold topic.....

A small gold ring (under 3 grams) will sound EXACTLY like a pull-tab on my detector. There's thousands of these pesky pieces of junk and I will not dig them (sacrificing small gold) as it brings me no pleasure.
Again, I find small gold at garage sales with little effort so why should I bring misery to my tranquil hobby?
With that in mind, I dig the "expanded" pull-tab signals which end up being: Can-slaw, aluminum screw caps, and gold that is heavier than 3 grams.
If the can slaw is too thick, then I just continue popping clad until the well runs dry and get the hell out of there.
BUT.....I went back to such a place where the slaw was thick on a hot day (this summer) and worked that slaw because I was desperate for somewhere to hunt and was hungry for gold.
I managed this puppy amongst the crap.....



She's only 10k but weighed in at 9.3 grams.
So, do I have a sure fire system for finding gold? Nope, but I did manage 8 gold items this year that were in the 3.8 to 10.9 gram range and I didn't torture myself too much by digging pull-tabs, foil, and other wretched junk.
This is pretty good considering I spend most of my time at old sites relic hunting and I didn't hit the beach once this year.
I managed over a dozen heavy silver rings (including two big football championship rings) without digging hardly any modern pennies.
I did find some smaller and older silver rings because they were deeper and I would never pass on those kind of signals.

Oh, here's the biggest gold item (14k) from this year that sounded EXACTLY like a nice chunk of can slaw and was fairly shallow....



Whats' my point to this post? Keep the hobby fun! It's nice that one is determined to find gold and will dig through crud all day to find it but be careful you don't end up packing it in because of too much torture.
If you really need gold jewelry in your hand that bad, then try some garage sales and you'll probably find more gold with less effort!
Happy Hunting!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

digger27, no need to get testy. Seems as if you're getting personal (name calling) . Rather than debating an issue from logical pro's & con's.

But anyhow, I read your post from beginning to end. And .... when limiting the discussion to junky parks: I still don't see any average ratios your system has afforded you. Eg.: 1 to 10 ? 1 to 50 ? 1 to 100 ? etc.... I do see that you've said that you: ".... avoid about 80% of the trash I come across". Ok, then sure: We can all avoid "commonly recurring trash items" (which will net us in some lost/missed gold). But this still isn't telling me what your final average ratio is in junky parks ?

Because at a certain point (1 to 500, or whatever) doesn't it start to become "random chance" ? And therefore at a certain point, doesn't the notion that "gold and aluminum sound different" begin to raise questions ?

And BTW: This pro & con debate has NOTHING to do with whether or not someone should or shouldn't enjoy it. I have no doubt that some people enjoy angling for gold in junky turf. That is not the question in discussion here. The point in question is solely: "Can any machine or technique or learned skill tell the difference between aluminum & alloyed gold jewelry ? "

 

[Tom_in_CA]

..... I can go over 100's of aluminum targets at these trashy parks and i don't have to dig because of the tones and i do rely on the numbers also and were it pops up on the screen.....

Rodger-dodger, Not sure if your above statement is a notching TID statement, or truly a tones statement. If you truly meant tones , then are you saying that aluminum sounds can be learned to tell apart from Gold ? If so, then what would you say your ratios would be (aluminum vs gold) if you went to junky blighted parks to employ your tones techniques ? 1 to 10 ? 1 to 50 ? 1 to 100 ? etc......

 

[Roger Mn.]

The tones on the gold ring were higher than the pull tabs. The ring pull tabs and can tabs sound like they have a hollow sound .Hard to explain it.
The gold ring was louder.
Aluminum bottle caps are loud sounds and i have to go to open screen that is all metal mode and i get a 16 or higher number that means it is a aluminum bottle cap. I pass most of these up.I don't find many gold rings.Just this one this year.I think i found 5 other rings.One sterling silver and one gold plated. One solid aluminum ring stamped Germany.Not sure what the others were made of.
This 14-k gold ring buy the sound and depth and the place it came up on the E-Trac told me i had a ring before i dug it. This area is full of pull tab sounds and i quite digging them. I just know that they are not gold rings.I usually detect in 4 tones.

 

[ivan salis]

with the old school tracker IV --once the disc level is properly set where the "normal soda can pull tab " just is detected ..it will sound fuzzy and scratchy (not sharp and clear) however a decent gold ring will ping sharp and clear ..yes its a form of "notching" as you say but they do "sound different " one not so good , the other strong and clear ...,so long as one can tell A from B ..it improves your chances as you WILL spend less time digging trash outjects and more time digging productive (good objects) ...and frankly that's what folks want a way to improve their odds and find more gold and less trash

 

[Sandman]

Every one but Tom forgets detectors are made of electrical components and no two are alike. Quality control doesn't make one detector behave just like another.

 

[Roger Mn.]

Read the General Detecting Questions & tips.
https://www.minelab.com/knowledge-base/frequently-asked-questions

 

[Roger Mn.]

Take a look at these bird bands.
The small one was found with the Whites DFX. It gave a real good sound and i didn't know what it was until i dug it.
Even though it is aluminum i did not think it would be a pull tab.
The big one was DFX and the blue one was the E-Trac.
The Two aluminum tokens i found this year didn't sound like pull tabs and was a high tone.

And this is an Aluminum ring made in Germany and did not sound like a pull tab.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Not meaning to "beat a dead horse", but .... to clarify on the distinction of "notching":

Notching normally means programming certain TID #'s "in" and other #'s "out". Can be done either by visual site (purposefully passing #'s or grid coordinates of your machine) or by programming the machine to automatically disc. out those #'s.

But there is another form of "notching", that involves sounds and tones, which are aside from the actual TID. What I mean is: Admittedly a concise gold ring is more concise in sound and shape (if lying flat, and uniform in shape, as most gold rings are). Whereas an elongated foil wad or can-slaw strip can be non-concise (bi-metal tones, elongated shape, etc...).

But by passing those targets that aren't locking onto a TID, or seem "elongated", you will miss a wadded up bracelet, or various other gold items that just don't happen to be "round", like a singular flat ring. Thus this use of "sounds and tones" not a function of "telling aluminum apart from gold". It's another form of "notching".

And there are scores of turfed areas where molten can nuggets (aluminum cans thrown onto BBQ pits in yesteryear) will still "lock on" and seem "round", exactly like a gold ring would sound.

 

[ivan salis]

flat laying ring type items often have a "double blip" effect that modern long flat pull tabs will lack --however older beaver tail type pull tabs with a pull ring can sound that way --due to their shape / design ...

 

[ChampFerguson/TN]

There is no Certainty of knowing a target before you dig, be it silver (more certain, certainly tho!), Al, gold, or whatever. Treasure Hunting is a game of odds and probability and any skill you can develop will help your chances of finding good stuff and leaving trash undug in the ground. Depending on your gear, your ears, your experience, and your brain, you CAN improve the odds. If you disagree, that's fine. Not everyone is as capable as others.

 

[ivan salis]

operator skills do count for a lot --- I have seen seasoned pros with "lesser" detectors run circles around a newbie with the latest and greatest gear ..... there is no replacement for time spent getting to know your machine and what its telling you ...that said --if the operators skills are equal --the better machine usually wins --- while luck dues play a part -- good research to find better spots to start off with helps a lot too