Adolph Ruth

[Dave45]

What does Veni,Vidi,Vici mean

 

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[Dave45]

cool 8)

 

[cactusjumper]

Here is the pertenant passage: "The first gorge on the south side from the west end of the range. They found a monumented trail which led them northward over a lofty ridge thence downward past Sombre Butte into a long canyon is running north and finally to a subtary canyon wooded with a contiguous thicket of scrub oak."

A bit further down....."Veni, Vidi, Vici". And lower on the page, "About 200 feet across from cave." was written in pencil. Everything except this portion of the notation, is copied by Ruth from other sources.

The tape you are talking about is available for sale.

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

dont forget you may be takeing it out of tects. i found the wording very interesting for two main reasons . one is that on the paper it was not worded veni vidi vici only the words veni vidi . were on the paper as i stated but did you know there is a wording of this in latin . veni vidi vadi ,, i came ,i saw , i went ... when i found this other wording i came to beleave ruth may have killed him self ...

and did you know there are two words in latin that have the vici .....vici is one, the other is vicinity , part of another clue in the dutchman legend ...

 

[the blindbowman]

Here is the pertenant passage: "The first gorge on the south side from the west end of the range. They found a monumented trail which led them northward over a lofty ridge thence downward past Sombre Butte into a long canyon is running north and finally to a subtary canyon wooded with a contiguous thicket of scrub oak."

A bit further down....."Veni, Vidi, Vici". And lower on the page, "About 200 feet across from cave." was written in pencil. Everything except this portion of the notation, is copied by Ruth from other sources.

The tape you are talking about is available for sale.


"than you know for a fact the word vici was not on the paper found in his pocket after his death !"

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

"than you know for a fact the word vici was not on the paper found in his pocket after his death !"

As I was not there, I know nothing "for a fact". I will leave that certainty to others.

Here are a few "facts": Tom Kollenborn writes, "Veni, Vidi, Vici" on page 62 of his book, "Superstition Mountain: A Ride Through Time".

Dr. Thomas Glover writes, "Veni, Vidi, Vici" on page 229 of his book, "The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz: Part 1: The Golden Dream".

Helen Corbin writes, "Veni, Vidi, Vici" on page 306 of her book, The Bible On The Lost Dutchman Gold Mine And Jacob Waltz".

Sims Ely writes, "Veni, Vidi, Vici" on page 10 of his book, "The Lost Dutchman Mine".

There are many others who have researched this man's death, and all agree on what was written on
"a single sheet of paper...." placed in his checkbook and in his shirt pocket.

Curt Gentry wrote, "Veni, vidi, vici" on page 102 of his book, "The Killer Mountains". At the bottom of that page is this: "* The Above wording of Adolph Ruth's last message differs slightly from that given in most accounts of Ruth's death. This, however, is taken directly from the original in possession of Dr. Erwin Ruth." He was not referring to Cesar's message, which is verbatim.
(Emphasis in bold by Joe)

I believe the weight of the evidence is not in accordance with what you understand about Ruth's note.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[the blindbowman]

now thats interesting seeing how the superstition mountain historical society provided that doctment ...and worst ,kollenborn and corbin are all members ... so you are saying that the A&E boigraphy has misleed people and the paper shown in that special provide by the historical society is wrong....is that what you are saying that some book writers know more than this historical society dose ... ...

is ruth dead or not lol

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

Why did you edit your last comment? Have you decided you would like to be me....after all?

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

Bowman,

Why did you edit your last comment? Have you decided you would like to be me....after all?

Joe

i didnt know of you knew what the big words mean ...lol

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

Not to worry, as there is no word that you might use that I would not understand. That assumes the spelling is somewhere close to correct.

I am just barely smart enough to be able to use the "Spell Check" below. I use it so others won't mistake the meaning of what I am writing.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

"now thats interesting seeing how the superstition mountain historical society provided that doctment ...and worst ,kollenborn and corbin are all members ... so you are saying that the A&E boigraphy has misleed people and the paper shown in that special provide by the historical society is wrong....is that what you are saying that some book writers know more than this historical society dose ... ..."

No. What I am saying is that the A&E tape has a number of mistakes in it. What you are saying is true, in that "vici" is left out of the note that they show. The part about 200' across from cave, in pencil, is also not shown.

That means that all of the people who have been quoting that passage over the years were wrong, or that they did not have the "original" note. You may notice that it is only the narrator who talks about the note, and none of the principle members of the group make a comment about it.

You could be right......and you could be wrong.

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

Bowman,

Not to worry, as there is no word that you might use that I would not understand. That assumes the spelling is somewhere close to correct.

I am just barely smart enough to be able to use the "Spell Check" below. I use it so others won't mistake the meaning of what I am writing.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

,

i don't think your spelling has anything to do with you not being able to read a map or being Rudd ! lol
and what would 200 inches have to do with it ?

back to the topic ...

as far as Ruth goes , is it important what those words meant . maybe ,maybe not . he could have written them years earlier.., could it be Ruth never had the map with him when he came to the Mt's .. he stated he had a map . he did not state he had it on him at the time ...and no map was found where the body was found ....its more logical he never had the map with him at the time ...but if i am right about the location of the mine it ex plans a few facts , like Ruth's body and head were no where near the mine ... that IMHO means who was guiding him was not taking him where he wanted to go.....or Ruth did not trust them ...maybe Ruth was right Look what happen ...

lets get real ... if he was killed why take the head somewhere else . to stop the body from being Id . thats dumb , his teeth were found and the site with all or most of his belongings ...OK we defind animals took the skull where it was found ..if thats excepted logically , than who saw him last , they say they left him in one area , they say ... next , if i was right and there are two wordings of Latin that started with the same two word yet the third word was diffrent would that play a diffrent meaning , yes . it would make one think Ruth had killed him self ....not write he had conqueredcould relate the opposite , in this case defeat...

and maybe he never got the chance to write the last word . , the top was on his thermos, was anything left in it...?
his gun was fully loaded . why not shot a help message ? why not shot him self for that matter if he was at deaths door ...?

no one ever proved Ruth was shot ...and his own gun was unfired ..note the gun was not in the hoster when the picture was taken ....as far as we know at this piont ...as far we know he could have been killed by animals or fallen or was sick and collapsed, that logically could explan a full thremos ...or a unfired firearm..another thing i have not seen yet is any defindment of what body parts were found and where .. why . if his arms were not at the site most likely arms are very easy for animals to brake free from the bodty and drag away thus is the case with the head or skull after a few days ...and in fact could explan more about his death ... most big cats well return to a site for a days if not a week or so ... they stop feeding after the meat starts to rots ... but do return to a kill often over a few days

most comman the legs are not because of size and weight ..also note the torn clouths ...if you leave clouths out side for a few months they dont look like that ...

and besides all of these thoeries . the man could have stacked the belongs like that before moveing the body . thus the site was disterbed before we got to see it ...

the bones were not in the shade ... or near a flat setting stone ...but could have been very easly attacked by a animal in that area ..not being from that area or knowing the animals in that area this could be the cause of his death ...some with a fall . he is out in the open and could have triped and braken a leg or collapsed , that could logically explan his bones being found in the open ,,,

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

Don't know who could argue with all that. Looks like you have solved everything. Nothing left for anyone else.....How sad.

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Forgive me if Iam wrong, but I had the impression that the forensic examination showed a projectiles' entry and exit orifices in the skull

Since his personal firearm wqs supposedly unfired , hmmmmmmm where was Djui on that date? Was he performng an assisted suicide?


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

T.T.,

The reports were conflicting. The local authorities called it anything but homicide.

Ales Hrklicka, one of the foremost experts in forensics, at the time, believed the death was caused by gunshot from a high caliber weapon. No one really wanted to investigate another death in the Superstitions.

There were too many suspects, some well known, and the body had been exposed to the elements for too long. It would have been an impossible case to prove....beyond the shadow of a doubt. It went to the bottom of the stack.

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

OLA JOE (cactus) Did they ever question DJUI?

Incidentally pure time isn't enough of an excuse in this case to just drop it, unless there were feelings of inability to solve it and someone just wanted to brush it aside, sorta like Clintons' aide comitting suicide in the park, yeah sure snicker.

Looking at the skull, through the left eye socket one can see what appears to be the initial impact area, almost a level path from left to right. From the amount of fragmentation of the skull on the right side, I would tend to a rifle fired on the same level as the skull, which tends to eliminate some one next to him shooting Ruth, prob from a short distance away.

Am I close DJUI?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[the blindbowman]

i agree this case could have been solved , so could the dutchman legend or any of these legends .. saddly expedition 3 will be my last chance to prove what i saw ....if i can not prove what i have found is the LDM or locate the hiden cave at the rock house or find some kind of prove that the jesuit treasure trove or the aztec treasure is in the tunnle . that will be the end of my treasure hunting days . i will retire and walk away ....leaveing over 12,000 photos in a book for those that wish to hunt the good hunt .. yes i am saying after expedition 3 , i will no longer be a dutch hunter ...if i can not prove i have found it with all i have gather than its time to walk away ...it will have taken me 28 years to prove what i saw ...thats long enough ...i sense the felling Ruth must have had when he went to look for LDM ...i dont know what else i can do . i found the rock with the face on it and the rock house . there will always be dout ,just not for me . i will know (there & than) if i was right .... but know this . "you can go stright into the mine " this could only be true if the dutchman was talking dirrectly about the tunnle it self. be it the ma & pa mine or the el sombero ...in that statement he dose not say my mine . our his mine ....is the pit there yes but thats not what he says in this statement...IMHO the high grade ore came from the tayopa treasure trove list ....

 

[cactusjumper]

T.T.,

I will post both pictures of Ruth's skull below.

It seems likely that he was setting on the ground or on a rock when he was shot. He was shot in the left side of the head, with the bullet passing through the right side of the skull at a slight downward angle. That was the opinion of Ales Hrdlicka, though not in those exact words.

I think it is interesting to note that we get this from the "Holmes Manuscript": "That night I prepared the meal at the ranch and Mr. Ruth joined me at the table. We were alone at the ranch as Mrs. Barkley was visiting in Phoenix and 'Tex' was riding the range with his men. After supper, we cleared up with the dishes and went outside to lay on our beds and talk."

That was from page 146 of Dr. Glover's Book, "....Part 2 The Holmes Manuscript.

That is followed by this on page 147: "I had not long been in the valley when I discovered that some one had been digging in the ancient ruins, so when I returned to Phoenix, sometime later, I reported the incident to the Arizona Republic, as they had often inquired about the pre-historic ruins. They accepted my offer to guide a special archaeological and reportorial party into the valley for investigation,......"
(Emphasis in bold by Joe)

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Here are two pictures. Were they taken at the same location? If not, does it tell us anything?

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

BB; ony 28 years? shehs yer a quitter, I had from 55 to 96 invested in finding Tayopa. hehee.

Don Jose de La Mancha