A Visit to BLM Sacramento Yesterday!!!

[QNCrazy]

I was in Sacramento yesterday and decided to stop by the BLM office to check the status of a claim and some property near my house. The good news is that there is property near my house that is claimable. However, the claim I was looking at appears to be in good standing, for now. The small miner's waiver was filed but no affadavit for assessment. When I asked about the affadavit and the December 30, 2015 deadline, I was told they have a 3 month backlog of paperwork. So I guess I will just have to wait and see. Just wanted to share this info for those who filed their paperwork in December.

 

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[goldenIrishman]

Here's a situation that I'd like your input on Clay. You remember those claims we've been discussing near Oatman? The LR2000 show that they've been downsized to the required 20 acres now but the County Recorders office has no record of any adjustments to these claims in their files. (I looked and so did one of the clerks) Hence it is impossible to tell exactly which portions of the original 160 acre claims were kept. So, in your mind, does this invalidate any claim(s) that this individual had to start with? I want to get out there and start prospecting that area but I sure don't want to take a chance of stepping on any toes.

 

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[Tuolumne]

I think that the clubs and rights groups should spend less time looking on the lr2000 and more time advocating for more miners rights against claim jumpers. We can call this the "mining the miners " act.

first id like to see a right of first refusal, if the continuously paid claim lapses on part of their paperwork process and some miner tries to jump it at the new year, then the claim owner is notified that John Doe is looking to take your diggins, you have such and such amount of resonable time to get your work in order or possible sell, which is better for miner. If the claim was truley abandoned then its kosher and John Doe jumps the claim no hard feelings. At least this give the miner a chance to sell rather than get jumped by lr2000 nerd gold club board member.

Has anyone ever been jumped or known someone who has or are we mostly claim jumpers here? LOL

but hate the game not the player is what Im hearing from most of yall.

Lets have the clubs and rights groups support against claim jumpers annual drooling over lapsed diggins for the taking- a payment option that covers multiple years on small acres that has a premium paid to BLM. So the regulators would get extra and the money sooner and give the small miner one less thing to worry about.

finally its a polarizing subject, each one of us has a different idea of what is ok with claim jumping.

Please QNCrazy define claim jumping? Id like to hear board members version.... Please others what is the edge that you wont cross in the claim jumping world? Like above, whats the point you feel like your stepping on toes of another miner?

human nature is hard to regulate, there is also alot of schadenfreude around miners that persist today, taking pleasure in others misfortune, like "I got me another mans good claim!"

 

[Tuolumne]

The old fashioned way and the modern way is to discover and locate a valuable mineral deposit on lands open to location and entry.

The fact that you purchased a location from another miner that meets those criteria doesn't diminish the validity of the claim but it doesn't make it legally or morally superior to other discoveries and locations either.

Educate yourself and prosper!

Heavy Pans

well duh....I was refering to the new fasioned way, the lr2000 nerds looking at neighbors claims,those that sign up for 40$ year to mining rights groups list of inactive and pending delisted claims....

id rather have any of those honest claim transactions, locating, intending to hold, selling, than be taken advantage of by claim jumper just because its ok to do so from clerical error.....

 

[fowledup]

I'm gonna take a stab in the dark and guess that other than purchasing a claim you haven't actually gone through the process of locating a claim. Plenty of good tutorials out there (mylandmatters.org) that will help you understand the process better.

ONcrazy - I appeciate the attempted heads up on the BLM backlog you o'l claim jumper you- thanks, I need to do some checking on ours.

........Oh I forgot my manners, WELCOME to tnet Todd your fitting in nicely!

 

[Asmbandits]

I think that the clubs and rights groups should spend less time looking on the lr2000 and more time advocating for more miners rights against claim jumpers. We can call this the "mining the miners " act.

first id like to see a right of first refusal, if the continuously paid claim lapses on part of their paperwork process and some miner tries to jump it at the new year, then the claim owner is notified that John Doe is looking to take your diggins, you have such and such amount of resonable time to get your work in order or possible sell, which is better for miner. If the claim was truley abandoned then its kosher and John Doe jumps the claim no hard feelings. At least this give the miner a chance to sell rather than get jumped by lr2000 nerd gold club board member.

Has anyone ever been jumped or known someone who has or are we mostly claim jumpers here? LOL

but hate the game not the player is what Im hearing from most of yall.

Lets have the clubs and rights groups support against claim jumpers annual drooling over lapsed diggins for the taking- a payment option that covers multiple years on small acres that has a premium paid to BLM. So the regulators would get extra and the money sooner and give the small miner one less thing to worry about.

finally its a polarizing subject, each one of us has a different idea of what is ok with claim jumping.

Please QNCrazy define claim jumping? Id like to hear board members version.... Please others what is the edge that you wont cross in the claim jumping world? Like above, whats the point you feel like your stepping on toes of another miner?

human nature is hard to regulate, there is also alot of schadenfreude around miners that persist today, taking pleasure in others misfortune, like "I got me another mans good claim!"

Here is the deffinition of claim jumping : " one who illegally occupies property to which another has a legal claim"

Being that once a claim becomes invalid due to the owners incompetence, what you describe is not claim jumping by definition, so you continued use of calling everyone "claim jumpers" is idiotic imo. Basically everyone has provided you with more than enough correct information to show that your view doesn't add up to how it actually works in the field.

 

[SchoolOfHardRocks]

Can't we all just get along and stop with the name calling..

Too many threads going the wrong direction lately IMO. Let's get back to talking about the gold and the adventure finding it eh?

It seems that some post here to provoke, others reply to provoke, and IDK how many times a newbie asks for advice and most of the advice is: "make sure you don't get shot being on someones claim or property..yada yada yada"... yes that's important - but let's not forget to let people know to have fun... Or instead of what not to do, maybe give some info on what you can do...just my thoughts..

 

[QNCrazy]

I am a reponsible and respected miner among my peers, including this forum. As you can see, the people who know me here have my back. Please search through some of the threads regarding establishing cliams and you will find a detailed description of the process I went through last December and early January in obtaining my first claim. I could have purchased one as you did, but there are a lot of scams out there. Are you sure your claim is valid? Is it filed with the county? BLM? Have you personally verified there are locatable minerals there? I can say yes to each of these question.

Just to entertain you, I'll play along. My definition of Claim Jumping is filing a claim on top of a valid claim, not filing on a claim that has been abandoned or lost due to the claim owners failure to keep up on their paperwork. While we are at it, I checked the map of the claim because I didn't want to highgrade.

So lets see if I understand you, if we all lived in Todd's World, when us claim jumpers see a claim that has recently been closed, we should be courteous and call the previous owners and ask if they want to reestablish the claim prior to filing for it ourselves. Really Clay said it best, we all get notices from BLM if we missed a deadline or if in filing our paperwork, something was in error. BLM gives us a change to fix our errors. If a claim gets closed, thats on the claim owner. We all know this or should know this when we file our claims. Might I suggest you put out the $12 for the BLM mining guide and inform yourself. That's what I went by went setting up my claim.

There are no claim jumpers here, no one has filed on a valid claim, nor will I ever.

I personally invite you to come to the next Delta Gold Diggers meeting on Wednesday, February 3, and we can discuss this. Eagles Hall in Stocton on Bourbon St. Hope to see you there. Anyone else nearby looking for a club to join, you are welcom as well.

 

[Tuolumne]

it doesnt even take a visit to the BLM, all you have to do is call in and ask to find out about claim status with BLM, and they will tell you if they received your docs, and in August they told me that they had back order and to check lr2000 in December for mine.

Maybe QNCrazy can have a talk at the sonora show about using the lr2000 to legally jump claims like all the clubs do or give a talk to warn miners that this is what is going to happen, a gold club is going to scout out your claim and wait till you mess up to pick it up......

Re read the original post with exclamation points in the title, what were you so happy about? Thats hunting not a abandoned claim but one that was partially filed correctly and he was hoping the paperwork was missing would lead to his acquisition......so my bad, he almost jumped a claim.

Why dont you just give us the claim number and we can get you two in touch to see if he would appreciate your snooping around.

Why dont you man up and invite him to your delta diggers claim jumping meeting to share with him how you almost plucked up his claim! lol

Poor guy...... If that was my claim you were hoping to get because of paper work back log, I would not be so happy about it.......would you?

as a 4th generation California miner, I have experience regarding claim process that most members of tnet do not, my family located claims for over 100 years and im not bragging or snooping lr2000 for recent delistings- so I know more than 99% of people about this process. I got more ground than I can dig up in a lifetime, and i dont want to flip paper claims i got on lr2000 or hear about people poaching the lr2000 for "almost" voided claims.....

Like I said, why don't you start a claim jumping post so you all can gloat to each other about how many you picked up after the new year. How many claims is enough or are you just like most clubs and will get another member or board member to file it in his name.....

until your jumped and experience this from the other side its easy to think that its not shameful... I dont want any part of mining the system if there is any chance the claim owner or family members inheritance is at stake.....abandoned is one thing we all agree on.....

 

[QNCrazy]

it doesnt even take a visit to the BLM, all you have to do is call in and ask to find out about claim status with BLM, and they will tell you if they received your docs, and in August they told me that they had back order and to check lr2000 in December for mine.

Maybe QNCrazy can have a talk at the sonora show about using the lr2000 to legally jump claims like all the clubs do or give a talk to warn miners that this is what is going to happen, a gold club is going to scout out your claim and wait till you mess up to pick it up......

Re read the original post with exclamation points in the title, what were you so happy about? Thats hunting not a abandoned claim but one that was partially filed correctly and he was hoping the paperwork was missing would lead to his acquisition......so my bad, he almost jumped a claim.

Why dont you just give us the claim number and we can get you two in touch to see if he would appreciate your snooping around.

Why dont you man up and invite him to your delta diggers claim jumping meeting to share with him how you almost plucked up his claim! lol

Poor guy...... If that was my claim you were hoping to get because of paper work back log, I would not be so happy about it.......would you?

as a 4th generation California miner, I have experience regarding claim process that most members of tnet do not, my family located claims for over 100 years and im not bragging or snooping lr2000 for recent delistings- so I know more than 99% of people about this process. I got more ground than I can dig up in a lifetime, and i dont want to flip paper claims i got on lr2000 or hear about people poaching the lr2000 for "almost" voided claims.....

Like I said, why don't you start a claim jumping post so you all can gloat to each other about how many you picked up after the new year. How many claims is enough or are you just like most clubs and will get another member or board member to file it in his name.....

until your jumped and experience this from the other side its easy to think that its not shameful... I dont want any part of mining the system if there is any chance the claim owner or family members inheritance is at stake.....abandoned is one thing we all agree on.....

Does your family's history really mean anything? Oh, wait a minute, maybe that explains it, my great grandfather Abrahms partered up with the Karsky's in the 1860's to open the first dry good's store in Weaverville, CA. They were the first miners of the miners(JK) in the Trinity area. So on behalf of my family, I apologize to all we have offended over the last century and a half. It's obviiously in our blood.

 

[fowledup]

Maybe it's just me and my evil subversive thinking but if I wanted to monitor some claims for a quick hostile "claim jumper" style takeover I'd concentrate on the County, poo poo on BLM. Folks can claim over top another claim over and over and unless someone catches and contests it no sweat off their brow.

QNcrazy - I have some old pick and shovel remnants from the Weaverville area any chance I could get a refund since it's quite obvious your family sold someone in my family crappy implements of destruction?

 

[QNCrazy]

If 99% of us claim owners have been responsible in keeping up on our paperwork to keep our claims, and if you lost some claims because you weren't responsible, then I would have to agree you have more experience than the other 99% of us. LOL!!!

 

[QNCrazy]

Maybe it's just me and my evil subversive thinking but if I wanted to monitor some claims for a quick hostile "claim jumper" style takeover I'd concentrate on the County, poo poo on BLM. Folks can claim over top another claim over and over and unless someone catches and contests it no sweat off their brow.

QNcrazy - I have some old pick and shovel remnants from the Weaverville area any chance I could get a refund since it's quite obvious your family sold someone in my family crappy implements of destruction?

Sorry Fowled, no refunds once the equipment has been used.

 

[Tnmountains]

QNCRAZY stop the attacks.

 

[Tnmountains]

I was in Sacramento yesterday and decided to stop by the BLM office to check the status of a claim and some property near my house. The good news is that there is property near my house that is claimable. However, the claim I was looking at appears to be in good standing, for now. The small miner's waiver was filed but no affadavit for assessment. When I asked about the affadavit and the December 30, 2015 deadline, I was told they have a 3 month backlog of paperwork. So I guess I will just have to wait and see. Just wanted to share this info for those who filed their paperwork in December.

No claim jumping here just a heads up on the backlog at the BLM and the claim may come available.

 

[goldenIrishman]

I have to agree with fowled on the poo poo on the BLM for the most part. The LR2000 does have it's uses at times. I will NEVER consider using it as doing full due diligence though! It's way to far behind in a lot of cases and the only way to make sure that you're in the clear is to take the time to go to the COunty Recorders Office and look at their records for yourself. I'm not sure about all the other counties out there, but ours offers a subscription service so you can access the records from the comfort of your own home. Works great if ya like being able to have a smoke or a beer while you do your searches. (Of course having some pretty office type ladies to look at is nice too. Distracting but nice.) When it comes to either original filings or adjustments to a filing, you have to remember that the County trumps the BLM every time in a court of law which is where it really counts.

As to what constitutes "Claim Jumping" in this case I don't see it. If the claim is invalid because someone either didn't remember to pay their fees or wanted to give up on the claim makes no difference. It's only "Claim Jumping" when the paperwork is still valid. We as miners have to use all forms of records to (pardon the pun) dig up the truth on the status of a piece of ground. During my trips to the County Recorders Office here I've seen the same piece of ground claimed many times over the years. Most miners don't know the real requirements to file a claim or to give one up. VERY FEW county people know the mining laws and then when you throw the BLM into the mix as well it gets all screwed up! You have to be patient, check your sources with a fine tooth comb and also be part Sherlock Holmes when doing your due diligence.

 

[QNCrazy]

QNCRAZY stop the attacks.

Back up a minute, who was attacking who? I have merely summarized what someone else has said and defended myself. I even insulted my own heritage. However, I'm done with the BS on this thread. I have been supported by other members here and it is greatly appreciated. Miners backing miners!!!

 

[mikep691]

I believe there is only one place where the validity of a claim is shown. That's the county recorder's office. BLM and LR2000 are for "INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY" and it's even stated on the their website. I believe you CAN actually have, validate, maintain a claim in good standing without ever filing or paying a cent to the Information only BLM. This was actually confirmed by the recorder and tax assessor offices in my claim's county. A claim is valid as long as all your filings are recorded at the county, and remain so until a notice of Abandonment or Quit Claim Deed has been recorded.

 

[SpecJet]

That may be as far as the county is concerned, but the federal government has made it pretty clear in the FLPMA (43 CFR 3834.11) that failure to file annually with the BLM will result in your claim being forfeited by operation of law and open to location by someone else.

 

[Clay Diggins]

FLPMA

§1744. [FLPMA §314]
Recordation of mining claims
(a) Filing requirements
The owner of an unpatented lode or placer mining claim located prior to October 21, 1976, shall, within the three-year period follow- ing October 21, 1976, and prior to December 31 of each year thereafter, file the instruments required by paragraphs (1) and (2) of this sub- section. The owner of an unpatented lode or placer mining claim located after October 21, 1976, shall, prior to December 31 of each year following the calendar year in which the said claim was located, file the instruments required by paragraphs (1) and (2) of this subsection:

(1) File for record in the office where the location notice or certificate is recorded either a notice of intention to hold the mining claim (including but not limited to such notices as are provided by law to be filed when there has been a suspension or deferment of annual assessment work), an affidavit of assessment work performed thereon, on a detailed report provided by section 28-1 of title 30, relating thereto.

(2) File in the office of the Bureau designated by the Secretary a copy of the official record of the instrument filed or recorded pursuant to paragraph (1) of this subsection, including a description of the location of the mining claim sufficient to locate the claimed lands on the ground.

b) Additional filing requirements
The owner of an unpatented lode or placer mining claim or mill or tunnel site located prior to October 21, 1976 shall, within the three- year period following October 21, 1976, file in the office of the Bureau designated by the Secretary a copy of the official record of the notice of location or certificate of location, including a description of the lo- cation of the mining claim or mill or tunnel site sufficient to locate the claimed lands on the ground. The owner of an unpatented lode or placer mining claim or mill or tunnel site located after October 21, 1976 shall, within ninety days after the date of location of such claim, file in the office of the Bureau designated by the Secretary a copy of the official record of the notice of location or certificate of location, including a description of the location of the mining claim or mill or tunnel site sufficient to locate the claimed lands on the ground.

(c) Failure to file as constituting abandonment; defective or untimely filing
The failure to file such instruments as required by subsections (a) and (b) of this section shall be deemed conclusively to constitute an abandonment of the mining claim or mill or tunnel site by the owner; but it shall not be considered a failure to file if the instrument is defective or not timely filed for record under other Federal laws permitting filing or re- cording thereof, or if the instrument is filed for record by or on behalf of some but not all of the owners of the mining claim or mill or tunnel site.

(d) Validity of claims, waiver of assessment, etc., as unaffected
Such recordation or application by itself shall not render valid any claim which would not be otherwise valid under applicable law. Nothing in this section shall be construed as a waiver of the assessment and other requirements of such law.

Heavy Pans

 

[Clay Diggins]

Let's try this one more time.

Claims are made on the ground by discovering a valuable mineral deposit and occupying the land encompassing the deposit. Occupation is the legal enforcement of the possessory right to the mineral deposit. Occupation consists of clearly marking the location and erecting a monument with a description of the location being claimed. That is the right of occupation described in the mining acts.

Claims are made public, as required by law, by making a public record with the county recorder. In addition since 1976 the filing of a notification of the claim location with the BLM State office is required. Both the public record and the informational filing are a part of the ongoing duty to maintain the claimed right.

A right of occupation with a corresponding duty of maintenance.

The mining claim is a claim of right.

The public record is a duty to maintain the claim.

Claims are made on the ground. The point and time of discovery and occupation is how a claim of right is made. Claims are not made at the County Recorder or the BLM. The duty of maintaining the right is not the right itself. A public record is not a claim but it is evidence of a claim.

Heavy Pans