A question of Depth

[SeaProbe]

I am new to this board but I will try and keep the things I post relevent to what we are doing here.
The Ships of the kind that carried what we all would like to find (Treasure) ships were deep draft.
The range is depending on the length but I think most were from 12 to 16 feet in depth for the large Galleon ships. Some may have been deeper. Now take the sea state when the ships were sunk during storms. Waves in a hurricanes being quite large could cause the ship to strike bottom when in water that was maybe deeper than the draft of the ship maybe 30 feet if a wave was 20 feet. Also storm surge stacking up against shoals or islands could easily make the water run deep enough for a deep draft ship to come into shallow waters. I guess the point I am trying to make is that allot of finds are near shore not way out on the reef where you might think they would be. You beach combers have a good chance to find some big find in knee deep waters.
- SAFFIR/SIMPSON SCALE -
Category Wind MPH Surge feet Fla. Example
1 74-95 4-5 Floyd in 1987
2 96-110 6-8 David in 1979
3 111-130 9-12 Betsy in 1965
4 131-155 13-18 Donna in 1960
5 156-up 19-up Labor Day 1935
-

 

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[Grenadaresearch]

Most reefs I have dived in the Caribbean have a 35-45 foot deep coral headed trench around it, so the theory is totally plausible furthermore in many instances the hull was waterlogged and or rotting , hencce the bottom parting so easily, most of the Spansih Fleet leaving Cuba had this issue with rotting ships. It makes sense to re work most of my sites. Good Point SeaProbe and Cornelius

 

[FISHEYE]

Seaprobe,
one thing you forgot to factor in,is at what depth the ocean was at the time the ship hit bottom,the bottom changes daily,sand comes an goes,same for reefs,200 to 300 yrs ago there were reefs,now with global warming alot of the reefs are dying,too much sun or pollution and reefs die.also hurricanes move alot of sand around,look at some of the beaches in florida,some have lost over 60 feet horizontal and 20-30 feet vertical.the sand that got moved from the beaches,where did it go? some beaches north or south of it got all sanded in. maybe some reefs got covered up as well. a 800 ton ship with a full treasure load would have a 40 foot draft.for a ship to have its bottom ripped out,it would have to hit a solid reef moving at speed or get stranded on a shoal an have the waves bust it up

 

[SeaProbe]

easily me clear the air of this a little. I was a commercial diver for years I went to work for a group of people who were heads of state of Florida and private investors. We well I should say my dive team and myself dove the Sebastian sites for a full season. We had exclusive rights to the site we leased. I know about shifting sand and the way a reef can be covered quite easily. OK to stay on track and address one thing at a time ,not all reefs have this problem. Allot of the reefs I have dove on have not changed in many years except for coral growth.One of the things we used in some surveys of wreck sites was to check the reef and find normal growth patterns of the coral in that area. After doing this research it is possible to find some areas that have signs of coral that has been broken and had new corals grow on top. This is a hard science since many things can break coral. Some of the time however you will find a gouge in the reef a place that just does not fit in with the growth around it. Sometimes this is an indicator that a vessel has plowed through the reef at some point.

OK To go to the next thing I have been sailing for 45 years and I have seen what a shoal and a reef can do to a vessel. It does not have to be hard coral to take the bottom out. Remember the tonage of the vessels some were quite large 800 tons but lets down size to a smaller ship say 450 tons. Now drive her before the storm when the hull speed was only four knots and the ship was surfing down waves and reaching speeds of say 10 knots that was out of control for the ships of that time. OK are you with me two thirds of the ship were below the water and ship worms had eaten the hull so it was weak. Stop a ship of that size and weight on sand or coral and if moving as I described the top kept going and the bottom stopped right then.For a few seconds it might have been hard for the crews of such ships to know they had lost the fight and the sea was coming to claim them and the treasures they held.The castle of the ships the raised decks toward the stern held many rooms some were quarters for the rich and some held chests with the riches of the passengers in them some were lashed to the deck in the room where they slept. That was what was going to be declared to the king for tax the rest sometimes much more was hidden in the holds. This is the reason for great finds being made where the ballast is found sometimes.I have done allot of research and by no stretch of the imagination do I have a great amount of knowledge on this subject but I do have years of diving and sailing and some good friends at the National Hurricane Center and University of Miami ,Florida Atlantic University and Beta Analytical carbon dating in Miami that I drew some of this information from. I am in no way a great mind just a guy who has done it and have some background.Much thanks to all the people who helped me out. Keep your input coming sharing knowledge is a great treasure in its self.

 

[wallycoz]

Remember one thing, though!!! When a ship is on a calm sea, it is Level. When weaver the weatherman says the seas are 6-10 feet. That's the HEIGHT of the swell! The depth of the swell still has to be considered. In a 10 foot sea, there is twenty feet between the top of the swell on the bottom of the next! And might I remind you that even if the ship was shaped like a surf board, it could only "surf" that swell for a short time. When it hit the bottom, it was curtains for anything as heavily laden as a treasure galleon!

The Silver and ballast stones were the first to go as they were stacked in the hull. Cannons were usually next along the trail unless she rolled on the spot or ran hard aground and foundered on a shoal or something like that. In which case she would be beaten and only the lighter objects and floating portions would be washed away to a distance. Everything else would be in the same general vicinity. Wherever the sterncastle ended up is where you would find the gold and precious stones(for the most part - the taxed gold anyway).

 

[wallycoz]

ALL need to remember one thing! Florida has a more bountiful (shipwreck) history than all of our other coastal states combined. Why? Simple. Early on, Spain was Queen of the seas. She was what she was because she stole or liberated the Gold, Silver, and Gems of any nation she could conquer. Most of the nations were in Central or South America. Where was her refueling point for sailors and supplies? Cuba, Havana to be more precise. At only 90 miles from Key West, the ships would sail straight for Key West, which was then called Cayo Weso. Once in sight of land, they would head due east until they lost sight of land. Again, they would head North until sighting land and then East again until losing sight of it. They would continue this zig zag pattern in order to stay within the Bahama Channel - close but not too close. It's only 50 miles from Ft Lauderdale to the Bahamas. Sounds like a lot. In a Tempest, it's way to close, especially with several reef lines off both locations. Remember, no motors and tacking back and forth to find the wind is not any easy way to travel, especially in those days and in those conditions.

It is said that Florida has so many shipwrecks, that from the entire coastal area of Florida out to about 1/2 mile, there is a wreck about every 100 yards in all directions!!! The total runs several thousand documented and probably several more that are not! Most ships were very sea-worthy for their time even in severe storms. The most dangerous thing that could occur is that one would get too close to the shores and strike a reef line. It would be like sticking your hand in a giant paper shredder. Nothing left! Over 95% of these shipwrecks are in less than 50 feet of water!! WHY, you ask? Because they could pretty much survive the storm (that is not sink) unless they hit bottom and in 50 feet of water or less, in a hurricane, they did!

 

[lobsterman]

regardless of the weather... if the draft of your vessel excedes the depth of the water you are most assuredly aground , i wouldn't be suprised if more ships were actually grounded in calm weather as opposed to during the rough seas, as the reefs would have been more visable and avoidable in the rough weather. and even if a ship didn't rip its bottom wide open, that does not mean it did not recieve a mortal blow and would sink many miles from the site of the actual grounding, even in mid-ocean, especially spanish treasure ships because they were under orders to keep on course, regardless of difficulties, as no port is a safe port for a treasure ship .
Pat.

 

[SeaProbe]

I agree with Cornelius and for that matter it is hard not to agree with every one on the way they look at this subject. Each wreck had its own set of conditions that contributed to the demise of that ship. Not one was like the next so almost every possible combination could have happened. The Captain of the ships were good sailors they had to be however the ships as has been pointed out were very limited in how they handled.I have seen waves that got so steep that in the valley the water was only about three feet deep. Once while trying to come through the pass at Pascagoula Mississippi returning from a ship maintenance dive we were on a 100' crew boat. We were being chased off the dive by heavy weather sixty knot winds building seas.A large shrimper tried to run the pass through the barrier islands and as the 25' waves caught them right in the middle of the channel it made them ground and they hit the wave surged over them game over. The shrimper never came back into site swallowed up in maybe ten seconds.That vessel was 90 feet. The crew made it and we picked them up after several tries.