A little more for the small operator.

Couple of things you forgot there. Liability insurance is the biggest one. Very few companies wi insure anyone for explosives and they know it. Last quote I got for high x was $66k a year plus 28% of our profits. With the 1.4s, it's only $7.7 I plus 7% of our profits.

So far it seems that the 1.4s performance is about on par with TNT. Might have to use a little more than ANFO but the cost when all things are considered is MUCH lower than high x.

Another thing I noticed is that 1.4s doesn't "shock" the rock nearly as bad as conventional explosives leading to less bolting or other ground support.

We will know alot more by the end of the year as we should be in full swing by then.

It really sucks that there is very little equipment for small production so alot of this has to be hand fabricated from scratch. I REALLY need a CNC plasma table. This cutting stuff by hand is really getting annoying. Lol!!!
 

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Mad Machinist said:
Couple of things you forgot there. Liability insurance is the biggest one. Very few companies wi insure anyone for explosives and they know it. Last quote I got for high x was $66k a year plus 28% of our profits. With the 1.4s, it's only $7.7 I plus 7% of our profits.
Click to expand...

I was able to find some much more affordable quotes. PM if you want the contacts. I know the percentage split is typically what Dyno Nobel does.

Quotes for trucking insurance, however, started at about $20K/year. That's why I stick to binaries and 1.4 if it's not delivered. There is also a DOT exemption that allows you to haul up to 100lbs of 50gr det cord as 1.4, and that can boost ANFO.

Regarding ANFO, you either need a >2/5" hole or a pneumatic loader for small holes. which adds cost. But at $0.40/lb, not so bad.

I really want to see what your results with big Royex cartridges are!

If anyone needs an SLP-22 box, I had 3 CNC cut and have extras/
 

Something else that might be of interest is surveying and laying out drill holes, excavations and claims. Since a lot of professionals have gone to laser and GPS equipment, there are a lot of these combination compass/inclinometers on eBay that used to sell for around $200 new. We've surveyed a lot of caves with these, and they're adequate for laying out drainage, rock faces, etc. at the scale most of us would be operating on.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/254556704097

brunton1.jpg
 

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Mad Machinist said:
Bobcat should have their battery powered S70 nationwide here soon. Bad thing about internal combustion engines underground is your ventilation requirements go through the roof.
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Has anyone tried this thing? https://www.sherpaminiloaders.com/eng/models/sherpa-100-eco/ It's probably too small scale for alot of what you're doing. I don't like the price either but ventilation get's pricey and is a pain in the neck too. The CAVO would be the other option but those things sound a little wild. I was thinking of putting a golf cart car for it to fling rock at like MM was doing. The other option is rails but I have no experience there and am so remote there's no supply that I know of. The other obstacle is charging up electric equipment. Adit is up a hill 400' steep vertical feet from my power. I could run the cart down at the end of the day but the sherpa would be a chore everyday. Might run a power line to the adit. Are any other skid steers that are electric power out there?
 

Mountaineer2020 said:
Has anyone tried this thing? https://www.sherpaminiloaders.com/eng/models/sherpa-100-eco/ It's probably too small scale for alot of what you're doing. I don't like the price either but ventilation get's pricey and is a pain in the neck too. The CAVO would be the other option but those things sound a little wild. I was thinking of putting a golf cart car for it to fling rock at like MM was doing. The other option is rails but I have no experience there and am so remote there's no supply that I know of. The other obstacle is charging up electric equipment. Adit is up a hill 400' steep vertical feet from my power. I could run the cart down at the end of the day but the sherpa would be a chore everyday. Might run a power line to the adit. Are any other skid steers that are electric power out there?
Click to expand...

I've seen gas and electric powered wheelbarrows in use on trail projects. That could be another option.

Running power 400' isn't that big of deal. If you shop around, you can probably get the cable surplus.

https://thehardhatguy.com/best-powered-wheelbarrows/
 

I do like the battery wheelbarrow! Now if there was something battery powered in that price range that would scoop and fill it for me. The back isn't what it used to be.
 

Mountaineer2020 said:
Has anyone tried this thing? https://www.sherpaminiloaders.com/eng/models/sherpa-100-eco/ It's probably too small scale for alot of what you're doing. I don't like the price either but ventilation get's pricey and is a pain in the neck too. The CAVO would be the other option but those things sound a little wild. I was thinking of putting a golf cart car for it to fling rock at like MM was doing. The other option is rails but I have no experience there and am so remote there's no supply that I know of. The other obstacle is charging up electric equipment. Adit is up a hill 400' steep vertical feet from my power. I could run the cart down at the end of the day but the sherpa would be a chore everyday. Might run a power line to the adit. Are any other skid steers that are electric power out there?
Click to expand...

Those little Sherpas are very cool, but also very expensive for what they are. They're like the miniature offspring of a JCI 50M mini-LHD. Like a JCI 50M, they'll be pretty tippy, especially on rough ground. If they were $4,000 used as opposed to $25,000, they'd be a bit more interesting but there are better options in that price range.

CAVOs and other overshot machines are indeed wild, and their compressed air requirements are hefty to say the least (600 CFM for an EIMCO 630). They also require a bull hose for air, so forget about long trams - that machine won't go far from the face without putting in some effort swapping hoses. Pretty easy to run over your hose if you're not careful. If you're serious about avoiding track, your only pneumatic options are a CAVO or EIMCO 630 crawler mucker. 630s are neat little machines, though they require 11' of vertical clearance to dump at minimum, and I wouldn't be surprised if you'd still smack your bucket lip on the back since they're designed to rock backwards when dumping to help empty the bucket. They're roughly 5' wide, and you'll want some clearance on either side so you don't scrape yourself off on a rib. If you'd like track, I have a friend in Fresno with more rail and cars than you can shake a stick at for cheap, plus a battery trammer (in need of batteries), and can pick you out an EIMCO overshot in 24" or 36" gauge this weekend.

No matter what you do - battery equipment, trailing cable equipment, or diesel - you'll need a genset on site if you get away from pneumatic equipment, and a big compressor if you don't. There's not really any getting away from a big diesel plant of some variety topside, so pick your poison: jumpy pneumatic equipment, expensive and small battery equipment, or running vent bags and a bigger fan.

Personally, I'm 100% on diesel for loading and haulage. If you can track down a machine with a purpose-built underground engine, its emissions will be much cleaner than anything built to run on the surface. I'm partial to small Deutz diesels - 6000 CFM at the face will be plenty. I have these little guys:

911b-bilalli-ug-1.jpg

20201004_231343-2.jpg


First machine is a 1983 EIMCO 911B, second is a 1977 5-ton Young Buggy. I bought both machines for less than a new Sherpa 100 ECO. Honestly, if you can find an EIMCO 911 in good repair for $20,000 or less, buy it and accept the ventilation requirements. So long as you keep the hydraulic and fuel systems clean, they'll run circles around skid-steers and all the ultracompact/mini equipment. They're a little bit "over-bucketed" like most LHDs so getting a full bucket takes finesse, but each full bucket is 1.5 tons of quartz vein material and you can head for the portal at a jogging pace. Low center of gravity too, so not tippy. Biggest things are clean/quality fluids and keeping your cooling system happy and clean.
 

barrelroll said:
That's adapter looks nice.

Sounds like you are planning on something pretty big if you are considering C10 suspension. I've never crawled under a normet, rhino, or getman but I don't think they have much if any suspension.

How many yards/ tons are you thinking of hauling per trip? No concern about 4 wheel drive?
Click to expand...

Other than 40-ton articulated surface haul trucks, no piece of mining equipment I've run has traditional suspension. I'd suggest an air ride seat in lieu of suspension, coupled with aggressively cleaning your haul road. Combine reasonable speeds with an air ride seat and you'll be comfortable.

What you're designing sounds like a 2-ton Young Buggy, down to being built off pickup parts.
 

Yea I'd love a 911B and a Young buggy or two. Problem is the fact that it is very rare to find anything that isn't an overpriced pile of clapped out scrap metal that someone thinks is worth top dollar because of gold prices.

I know where quite a bit of stuff is sitting rusting away because the owner won't negotiate reasonable prices hence the search, evaluation, and modification of other equipment to see if it will work.

Then comes the availability of parts of older equipment. Most of the smaller stuff hasn't been made in many, many tears.

The future of mining is shifting to smaller mines and backnto narrow vein mining. Large discoveries are exceedingly rare anymore. If small mining equipment pops up and is priced right, I'll happily look at it.
 

Thanks for all the good info HardRockNM! The mine is snowbound till June so I'm not ready to do anything yet. Not too sure which option would be best either. Once I get some time to get in there see the width of the vein maybe that will guide my decision on rails or EIMCO 911. Till I get that sorted wheelbarrow buckets and a utv.
 

Mountaineer2020 said:
Thanks for all the good info HardRockNM! The mine is snowbound till June so I'm not ready to do anything yet. Not too sure which option would be best either. Once I get some time to get in there see the width of the vein maybe that will guide my decision on rails or EIMCO 911. Till I get that sorted wheelbarrow buckets and a utv.
Click to expand...

No problem! If you need a 911, I know of a 4-cylinder one for sale in northern California. The owner says it needs new tires, which are usually about $250 each. The 4-cylinder EIMCOs are 6" wider to accommodate the extra cylinder; the main difference is tramming speed (7.5 mph versus 5 mph). EIMCO's specs show breakout force to be identical between the 3-cylinder and 4-cylinder machines.
 

This month, I did some research on equipment rentals for the January ICMJ. There is a surprising amount of stuff that United Rentals and other places carry. Almost all of them have those little Bobcat S70 skidsteers that fit through a doorway, as well as mini-excavators. There is a whole industry around machines that you can drive into a suburban back yard. It might be worthwhile to rent some of these little machines to get an idea of the bucket size and footprint that works well for your operation.
 

BlasterJ said:
This month, I did some research on equipment rentals for the January ICMJ. There is a surprising amount of stuff that United Rentals and other places carry. Almost all of them have those little Bobcat S70 skidsteers that fit through a doorway, as well as mini-excavators. There is a whole industry around machines that you can drive into a suburban back yard. It might be worthwhile to rent some of these little machines to get an idea of the bucket size and footprint that works well for your operation.
Click to expand...

So, here's the thing - the S70 has only half the ROC of a JCI 50M, but the last quote I requested for a used JCI 50M was $90,000(!). I can't even begin to justify that for an older, used machine.

A lot of the small equipment is only available with gasoline power, which is a no-go if operating underground under MSHA. I'm not comfortable with it either, even in a noncommercial operation. Bobcat's specs indicate that the S70 has a small Kubota water-cooled diesel rather than the gas engine in the 310. I had looked at a 310 but ruled it out because of the powerplant. Rental rates on them are downright reasonable; I've got a small project in mind that I believe can be accomplished with one. I'll need to take some measurements and make sure it can fit in the drift - worst case, I end up hand-mucking and tramming with a wheelbarrow. A battery S70 would be even better for that project, especially with the short trams and small tonnage involved.

I wouldn't like tramming far with a quarter-yard bucket like that when driving drift - could always use the Bobcat to load rail cars and tram with a battery or small diesel loci. I've even seen a battery trammer improvised from a battery forklift fitted with flanged wheels. Rail cars are cheap if you know where to look.
 

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Mad Machinist said:
Check this out. Battery power wouldn't be hard.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=27ZoLL9w7js
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No, it wouldn't, but you'd take a payload hit with battery weight. Once you go articulated, you're in a very different class from a Young Buggy. The all-terrain capability of that truck in the video speaks for itself! It does lose out on payload - looks like they're good for about a ton at a time. There aren't a whole lot of small articulated trucks out there; the only others I've found are Getman 5TAs ($35,000 each and needed work), a few Elmacs (around $100,000 each - virtually nobody who has an Elmac will let it go for cheap!), and some contraption cobbled together from a Kubota tractor and shop-built rear frame and dump bed:

transteq-umt-10-underground-haul-truck-for-sale.jpg


I'd track down a small hydrostatic transmission or motor (maybe from a telehandler? It works for YMC!) and go from there if I were designing it from the ground up. As in our last conversation, I agree that hydrostatics are the way to go for small equipment that will be operated in tight and/or steep areas. On top of dynamic braking and low inertia, remotely mounting a motor opens up some interesting layout options like on a 911.
 

With battery power, you have to keep in mind lithium ion batteries.

Edit: just grabbed one of Ebay as an example. Should be plenty for a day's use underground. Pack should be able.to be easily reconfigured to fit available area. Frame on those Pugs is only 12 gauge. I know where one is at, it's s just getting them part with it. Rebuild the main frame from 1/4" and good to.go. Dame with the Taylor Dunn utility vehicles.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CHEVROLET-...124384?hash=item3b5391a520:g:hSsAAOSwWjpZp1HT
 

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Mad Machinist said:
With battery power, you have to keep in mind lithium ion batteries.

Edit: just grabbed one of Ebay as an example. Should be plenty for a day's use underground. Pack should be able.to be easily reconfigured to fit available area. Frame on those Pugs is only 12 gauge. I know where one is at, it's s just getting them part with it. Rebuild the main frame from 1/4" and good to.go. Dame with the Taylor Dunn utility vehicles.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CHEVROLET-...124384?hash=item3b5391a520:g:hSsAAOSwWjpZp1HT
Click to expand...

I know someone that scraps/rebuilds EV batteries. They could set you up with a complete pack in the shape you wanted, with the required electronics for probably $5K.
 

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