A crazy plan...

[Mezrein503]

I've been sitting here reading all these posts, and see small victories over politics and seeing some really dumb laws and what not and was just thinkin. Why, instead of fighting these small battles here and there, don't we try to take on something a bit larger? It's really us against the archies right? The reason the government is against is because the archies tell them to be. Ohh, we're distributing our history, we're ruining it for generations to come. I'm sorry, a 1909 wheatie is not history, maybe in another 300 years, but I doubt it. Yes I understand the government is also greedy money hungry folk, but really I think the problem is with them not knowing enough about our hobby to make informed decisions. The victory in Carthage proves that. Some damned archie that was all upset because he didnt find it went on tangent and made a big fuss about it. So... Lets take on the archies directly by doing to them what they try to do to us. Lets go up the chain to Congress, or maybe even higher than that, someone in the White House itself. Small victories are well and good, but consider this. Mosquitos are small, insignificant annoyances. Sometimes we squash them, sometimes not. If they get out of control then something bigger needs to be done about them. Each time they bite us, and we dont stop it, they've won a small victory for themselves. After enough of those, we start to do something about it, be it pesticides, bug spray, or whatever. Sooner or later we could win enough small victories USA wide that someone higher up is going to do something to stop it completely, then we'll lose it everywhere. I don't know, I may be completely crazy with my ideas, but I personally don't want to see our hobby get completely banned when we might have a chance to do something about it.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

mezrein503, the "solidarity" and "lobbying" you speak of, has already been done. It's called the "FMDAC", which goes waayyyy back, with the very concerns you cite, to the early 1980s. The problem is, our hobbyist #'s are just too small, to raise the type funds, to go to battle on large scale. Because unlike the NRA for example (which has gun enthusiasts on every street corner, in every city, etc....) detecting is a small niche hobby. So the FMDACs (and any like-organization) hands are simply tied.

There are just so many facets of detecting, and so many personalities, and so many goals, hunt types, etc..., that ...... it simply can not represent any sort of "norm". Ie.: a sandbox hunter plying for loose change, is a far cry from the guy who sleuths out civil war or revolutionary war relics from public forests, for instance. And no amount of lobbying is going to overcome some sort of mental impression of "guys profitting off the public's lands, for their own personal enjoyment or mantle place". At least not in the small #'s we represent.

Because putting yourself in a politician's shoes, the minute you allow joe-blow to pick up a memorial penny, then, heck, what's to stop the next yahoo from saying "then why can't I remove the bullet from Shiloh then?" and so forth. Thus there are, for example, rules forbidding the picking of flowers in the park, so as to stop a ding-bat from backing up his truck, and harvesting all the roses, right? yet you know full well that if your grade school daughter picks a dandilion, no one would care less, right? So do you think you can get battles started to "allow you to pick that dandilion and change laws?" No, of course not. Because going down that slippery slope means a big headache for powers-that-be. Thus the "catch all" protectionism laws.

But bear in mind, that you're reading through this "legal section" forum, and hearing scary stories, and thus jumping to a conclusion that battles must be fought, before you can go to your local school, park, beach, etc..... It's an easy knee-jerk reaction that occurs when people hear/read the stories. They think "oh no! I wonder if I can hunt!" etc.... when reading these stories from far away. So what do they do? They run down to their local city hall and "ask permission" (lest something like those scary stories happens to them). What happens then, is this "coming to a city near you" mentality, ends up being a self-fulfilling prophecy. Ie.: what may have been a "no one cares" (or would ever have noticed you) activity, is now up for someone's scrutiny, as if .... the mere fact you're standing there asking, preparing to fight them, etc... simply puts it on their radar as something to say "no" to (afterall, you asked).

Yes, of course we need to fight something unfair, that is already thrust upon someone's geographic locale. But be careful to go looking for a fight, at places with no restrictions, lest it only become a self-fulfilling vicious circle.

 

[detector99]

Tom, what you are saying about the hobbyists not being large enough as a group is true to some extent. However, I believe that with the right people taking this bull by the horns, and with a membership fee being charged, more than twelve dollars, something can be done. But it takes a full time organization to gather members, do lots of travel, make phone calls, write emails, blogs, and market a website, all while working virtually with no compensation in order to make it work. I've been personally fighting this fight for many years. There is not a week that goes by where I am not harassed by some Arkie, or beauracrat, and I'm not breaking any laws. I have copied and pasted a recent post of mine at another thread on this forum. There are people out there that are willing to join such an organization. However, as you said, they are small in numbers, but not small enough to where change cannot be implemented.

I am well aware of the FMDAC, and they do a fine job. However, it obviously is not enough.

"Hi everyone, this is Frank Pandozzi, Executive Producer and host of Exploring Historys Treasures, metal detecting, TV series. I'd like to offer, from my experience, my 2-cents on this subject.

The only way to stop the unnecessary taking of our lands by our government, and to stop the beauracrats from harassing us with law after law that impedes our right to enjoy our hobby, is by creating a funded organization with the idea of hiring lobbyists for each State to defend us. I have been on the chopping block for years because of my TV series. Archaeologists and beauracrats have thrown every law imaginable at me to try and kill my show. The only way I have won, as well as many others I know across the country who have been hassled, is by hiring attorneys to fend off the beasts.

A few years ago, with the help of another, we started an organization such as the one mentioned above. Unfortunately, I had to shut it down because of a lack of interest from the complaining public. We charged a small, yearly fee to help pay for lobbyists. We also had lobbyists in a few States ready to step into some problematic areas and help out. You see, many complain, but few are willing to step forward. This country, as much as I love it, is becoming a country hard on rhetoric, and soft on action. Many people want something for nothing, or are not willing to put their money, or there actions where their hearts are. Tough times means tough actions. Now I ask you all. If you want this problem that corrodes our hobby fixed, then how many of you have the cahones to do something about it?

Thanks,
Frank"

http://www.exploringhistorystreasures.com
http://www.metal-detecting-ghost-towns-of-the-east.com

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Frank, you, or anyone, is certainly welcome to go try and start yet another lobbying group if you want. But you have to ask yourself: If the FMDAC couldn't do it, why do you think you'll do any better? Believe me, it wasn't for "lack of trying" that they couldn't raise funds, members, efforts, etc.... The # of rallying supporters SIMPLY WASN'T THERE. As I said, we're in a niche hobby, which doesn't have enough hardcore adherants to rally, to begin with (of the amount of $$ needed to launch what you envision).

You're certainly welcome to try, but I fear you will be beating a dead horse. This has, as I say, already been tried before. You can certainly admittedly probably find fault with something the FMDAC did or does, in their several decades existence. Because of course, no one will "do it perfectly" and there is always "room for improvement", of course. And so too will others, a decade or two from now, probably sit in their armchairs too, and point out how any subsequent efforts also "should have done this" or "should have done that" different too.

Another thing I fear, from your talk of these efforts, is the same thing that happened psychologically from the FMDAC's impact: And that is: that the fights, solidarities, petitions, etc.... sometimes back-fire. There is legions of examples of persons or organizations within our ranks, "going to bat" for a booted individual, or to "seek clarifications" or "get permits instituted for XYZ's city or state park", etc.... And instead of getting more freedoms, what you get instead, is an "awareness" on the part of whomever it was that you are griping to, of some "urgent issue" that needs to be addressed, clarified, etc.... And you can guess where this goes!! Yup, new laws (or BOL's passed down to rank & file rangers, who perhaps never cared less before), institued to "address the pressing issue".

In other words, sometimes efforts like this end up only being self-fulfilling "no's"

 

[detector99]

Tom, I'm not saying I will try and do what FMDAC can't do, nor am I bashing FMDAC. I said they were a fine organization. But I do believe that the right people and the right organization can do more to help us. The difference between you and I however is this. I never in my 40 years of business life ever looked at negatives. You can find fault with any endeavor. However, this country was built on perseverance. It was created by people who looked at tough situations, planned a way to beat them, and forged ahead while others gave reasons why they should not proceed. That attitude goes all the way back to the Revolution. Defeatist attitudes do not defeat issues.

Frank,

http://www.exploringhistorystreasures.com
http://www.metal-detecting-ghost-towns-of-the-east.com