A BUSINESS MODEL FOR THE SHIPWRECKS IN THE BAHAMAS

[Oceanscience]

How did you conclude that the wreck you found at Great Issac, was the Elijah Swift? Dell

Hi Dell,

I have no positive identification of the shipwreck. The stuff we found looks about the same as what you show in your picture.
The coins were American coins. The silver coins in very bad condition, but recognizable as American. The Indian Head gold coin, perfect.
Only years later, Peter Trockmorton gave me information about the Elija Swift.

On your question, I dug up Peters shipwreck listing and you guess what? he mentions in his listing that he got the information from you.

 

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[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

This is childish Alexandre...can I not post anymore without you following it up with your ridiculous nonsense?

My point was that THIS PARTICULAR field school would in FACT not have taken place without NCR's help.

You are a broken record with no original thought in your head. This is the last response you will incite out of me.

Jason, I know you said that but then you expanded saying: "no doubt there will be a lot of treasure hunting boats surveying and finding wrecks that have no instrinsic value, which means there will be a never ending supply of field school locations", a generalization with which I disagreed and said so.

So, if you really think that making a conversation over rational arguments is childish and sounds like a broken record, then fret no more - its about time I stop "losing" time with this board.

So, you win.

That is the best news I have heard since you joined Tnet.

The Truth is, you loose! simple minded people.

 

[Dell Winders]

How did you conclude that the wreck you found at Great Issac, was the Elijah Swift? Dell

Hi Dell,

I have no positive identification of the shipwreck. The stuff we found looks about the same as what you show in your picture.
The coins were American coins. The silver coins in very bad condition, but recognizable as American. The Indian Head gold coin, perfect.
Only years later, Peter Trockmorton gave me information about the Elija Swift.

On your question, I dug up Peters shipwreck listing and you guess what? he mentions in his listing that he got the information from you.

I am honored! Dell

 

[ScubaFinder]

You should be honored Dell, way to go!

OS - Great information, keep it coming. We need to figure a way to FUND the theme park idea. That is going to take some serious bucks, and your average treasure investor likely wont cut it. I still think we need Hollywood, or Disney, or someone similar to take the reigns with us helping. How about getting all the treasure movie stars together, Johnny Depp, Matthew McConnahay, Jessica Alba, etc. lol Seriously, who has the kind of money you'd need to build the thing, Trump? The rest is easy once you have a capable backer. Thoughts?

 

[allan]

This is childish Alexandre...can I not post anymore without you following it up with your ridiculous nonsense?

My point was that THIS PARTICULAR field school would in FACT not have taken place without NCR's help.

You are a broken record with no original thought in your head. This is the last response you will incite out of me.

Jason, I know you said that but then you expanded saying: "no doubt there will be a lot of treasure hunting boats surveying and finding wrecks that have no instrinsic value, which means there will be a never ending supply of field school locations", a generalization with which I disagreed and said so.

So, if you really think that making a conversation over rational arguments is childish and sounds like a broken record, then fret no more - its about time I stop "losing" time with this board.

So, you win.

That is the best news I have heard since you joined Tnet.

The Truth is, you loose! simple minded people.

When calling someone simple minded spelling errors are frowned upon, its LOSE not loose. and it is quite possible that the strong arm approach of "if you don't see things my way you are a fool" attitude is why few could care less

 

[Oceanscience]

You should be honored Dell, way to go!

OS - Great information, keep it coming. We need to figure a way to FUND the theme park idea. That is going to take some serious bucks, and your average treasure investor likely wont cut it. I still think we need Hollywood, or Disney, or someone similar to take the reigns with us helping. How about getting all the treasure movie stars together, Johnny Depp, Matthew McConnahay, Jessica Alba, etc. lol Seriously, who has the kind of money you'd need to build the thing, Trump? The rest is easy once you have a capable backer. Thoughts?

Thanks for the feedback, Jason.

I agree with you.
To do it right, it is going to cost a lot.
What is needed for raising that kind of funding?
First of all it needs a solid business model. A model that makes sense. Ideas that have appeal and are economically feasible.
This is what we want to find on this thread and I thank you for contributing your ideas.

Exposing these ideas to scrutiny and criticism helps weeding out the less good ideas.

Once we have a few really good ideas, then we will look at a business plan. The business plan will show if it works financially. If the bottom line looks good enough to entice investment.

In the environment of shipwrecks, wreckers lore, pirates and colorful historic past, there is a considerable amount of romantic feeling involved. This can help counterbalance some of the high risk involved.
High risk is a gamble. But there are millions of people who like to gamble. Why? because it is very entertaining. It is a lot of fun to loose money in a casino.
Who is the winner? "The House always wins"
The casino wins.
The people working in the casinos win their daily bread and butter through their jobs.

This shows that loosing money is not always bad. The most important part is that the loosing was an exciting pass time. It was buying fun.

Can we design a fun project using the unique resource of the shipwrecks in the Bahamas?
I know that you would have a lot of fun diving on the wreck sites.
You also would have a lot of fun taking part in the enterprise.

Are there others who think alike?

 

[Dell Winders]

Atlantis Resort, http://www.atlantis.com/ would be a likely sponsor. Who's going to approach them with the idea?

I think It's possible with modern technology the search for Bahamas shipwrecks may reveal clues to the real Atlantis. I have personally seen a man made rock wall extending from 60 feet underwater down to 110 feet to the drop off, and a suspicious bowl shaped crater about 300 feet in diameter, 50 feet deep, in 45 feet of water. I have talked with two people reporting a small 50 foot high pyramid in 90 feet of water that I am anxious to investigate.

I think Edgar Cayce's, prediction of Atlantis being discovered may have been fulfilled by a Navy submarine in 300+ feet of water?

I'm inclined to believe that Civilization in the Bahamas, goes back more than 50,000 years, and some amazing discoveries are yet to be made.

Other mysteries may evolve. A light gray powder was recovered from an 1800's shipwreck, that when analyzed was a single molecule from being Platinum. Did alchemist figure out how to create Platinum in the 1800's? Were they close to learning how to create Gold?

Call me crazy, if you wish. I do have a tendency to look at things with a different perspective. Dell

 

[ScubaFinder]

GREAT Idea Dell, when approached we should have a damn good business plan in hand, but you are right on the money. I have to wonder how they are fairing in today's economic climate. I wonder if they wouldn't want to build the attraction right on their property. It would seem to fit into their model quite well, and if the salvors agreed to do a little searching and data sharing related to Atlantis, it would certainly be a win win.

 

[Oceanscience]

Jason is completely right, because I was working with NCR at the same time as Jas. I had been coming and diving in Montecristi even years before Jason arrived and I was also indirectly involved in the never ending discussion between Simon Spooner and NCR. The truth is that the President of North Caribbean Research, Rick Berry, gave him permission to use Tile Wreck from his lease area.

Other IMPORTANT point is that a model that Mr. Spooner wants to use in the Dominican Republic would be probably OK also in other countries, but I can only tell you that nicely designed web page and offers for field school and foreign students to learn about martine archaeology in field made only on paper is one matter and then the reality could be completely other matter. Nice model for maritime archaelogy field schools does not eliminate eternal paper work with government permissions neither.

Bobadilla

Bobadilla,

You, being closer to the the "Tile Wreck" field school, do you have any suggestions how this model could be improved?
What if we were to use this model in the Bahamas, specifically on some Spanish shipwrecks.

Would this appeal to Spanish divers?

Would this attract more Spanish visitors to the Bahamas?

Does the chance to take part in the search and excavation of a Spanish shipwreck present enough attraction to lure a significant amount of Spanish people to the Bahamas?

 

[Oceanscience]

Dell, thanks for the link to the Atlantis Resort.
Quite a resort. On Andros Island. Does that casino make a profit? I bet it does.

Now, there we have an example how loosing money can be fun. Of course, every visitor to a casino knows that he is going to loose money. He is not a looser because of that.
He just bought all the fun he could afford. He had a great ride.

There are many ways of having fun. Having fun is a feeling. For some people it is the greatest feeling to be a hero. Oh, yes, you can buy that feeling. Just donate a good sum of money to a good cause. They will make you a "Hero Member".
And the best part is that you can still use your donation for a tax deduction.

Let's say we have a not for profit foundation that sponsors a field school for amateur archaeologists in Maine. The goal is to explore the many American ships, specially the ones built or registered in Maine, that have shipwrecked in the Bahamas.
Donations to that foundation would be tax deductible.
Sponsors could personally take part in exploratory dives and excavations.
The donations would help defray the cost of the field school.
Members could also help with archival information, form the Maine archives, old news papers etc. about the background of these ships, the story of the shipyards that built them and the stories of the families who owned them. (more donations that give this nice feeling of having done something useful, something good)

It could be a fun ride for many people.

 

[ScubaFinder]

I will enjoy reading Dr. Kordak's response to that question as well. :-) I thought the MODEL was brilliant, it was the way it was carried out that bothered me, and the lack of follow-through.

Here's what I see for our purposes. How about one facility, on the water with docks and small inexpensive dive boats. Inside would be a few small classrooms, an artifact conservatory, and a small business office. You could run both sides out of one facility, one for archaeology students led by professors, and another for historical tourists led by a wreck diving tour guide. Both classes and activities would be much the same, but we would give the archaeology students the more historically sensitive wrecks, and the tourists would go dive the rum runners or maybe a previously studied civil war wreck.

I do think you could pull history buffs, wreck divers, archaeology students. and damn near every person on this forum if you were offering visually and historically interesting wrecks to dive on. The 6 or so rum runners close to South Bimini might work, sank in a hurricane in 1926 with cargos of illegal liquor heading to the U.S. during Prohibition. A small rum-runners museum would be a fun corner of the bigger picture. In fact, you could put one of these in several locations around the islands and each would pull different sets of tourists. How about train young Bahamians how to be expert magnetometer operators, treasure divers, or museum curators. The possibilities are endless with the education model, I've been in education previously so I know how rewarding (and challenging) it can be. :-)

 

[Dell Winders]

OS, the Atlantis resort is located on Paradise Island, across the harbour from Nassau. You can see where it is located on Google Earth. Atlantis resort, replaces the Paradise Island hotels and casino that were there previously. I imagine it is a stock traded company with financial reports accessible to the public.

Bimini, was approved for a Casino, and may be suitable for a complimentary Shipwreck museum, because of it's close proximity to Tourist destinations in Florida, however when they dredged, & filled to build the tourists resorts they seriously damaged the ecology of the area. Mass tourism to Bimini, would further damage the important, and fragile eco system.

Conservation has to be a major consideration in any business plan, for the Bahamas. I am happy that only 5 permits have been issued because I am concerned that even Shipwreck salvage may be destructive to sensitive areas.

Of course, Archeology itself, is a destructive science. I see the proposed shipwreck archeology in the Bahamas as a salvage archeology, which is good. But, I would like to help develop, and employ methods to isolate the precious metals crucial to the economy, from the rest of the wreckage and surgically extract just the Treasure, minimizing damage and leaving the remains of cultural artifacts in place for further archaeological study. Dell

 

[Vox veritas]

Atlantis Resort, http://www.atlantis.com/ would be a likely sponsor. Who's going to approach them with the idea?

I think It's possible with modern technology the search for Bahamas shipwrecks may reveal clues to the real Atlantis. I have personally seen a man made rock wall extending from 60 feet underwater down to 110 feet to the drop off, and a suspicious bowl shaped crater about 300 feet in diameter, 50 feet deep, in 45 feet of water. I have talked with two people reporting a small 50 foot high pyramid in 90 feet of water that I am anxious to investigate.

I think Edgar Cayce's, prediction of Atlantis being discovered may have been fulfilled by a Navy submarine in 300+ feet of water?

I'm inclined to believe that Civilization in the Bahamas, goes back more than 50,000 years, and some amazing discoveries are yet to be made.

Other mysteries may evolve. A light gray powder was recovered from an 1800's shipwreck, that when analyzed was a single molecule from being Platinum. Did alchemist figure out how to create Platinum in the 1800's? Were they close to learning how to create Gold?

Call me crazy, if you wish. I do have a tendency to look at things with a different perspective. Dell

Dell,
speaking of pyramids, common constant potential and mysterious of ancient civilizations, I found a document. In origin is where a treasure was hidden in Paraguay, about 170 meters underground, there is a place with a pyramid (see diagram) where there are pure gold sheets with a strange writing. The pyramid is inside a vault. In the upper drawing is a copy of the strange writing.

 

[Oceanscience]

OS, the Atlantis resort is located on Paradise Island, across the harbour from Nassau. You can see where it is located on Google Earth. Atlantis resort, replaces the Paradise Island hotels and casino that were there previously. I imagine it is a stock traded company with financial reports accessible to the public.

Bimini, was approved for a Casino, and may be suitable for a complimentary Shipwreck museum, because of it's close proximity to Tourist destinations in Florida, however when they dredged, & filled to build the tourists resorts they seriously damaged the ecology of the area. Mass tourism to Bimini, would further damage the important, and

Thanks for the correction for Paradise Island. I don't know how I put Andros in there.
I have not been in Bimini in 23 years, it must have changed a lot. So they finally dredged the harbor entrance so that larger boats can go in?

Museums or Theme Parks depend on mass tourism. However, the Bahamas cover a very large piece of ocean and it would only make sense to have operations in the Family Islands integrated in to the local communities.
Local conservation labs and small local exhibits to enhance the local tourism.
Collaboration with local diving businesses, local guides and as much local jobs as possible.
The coordination central in Nassau.

 

[ScubaFinder]

We are speaking the same language OS, I like the train of thought. Local dive masters could lead the tourist diving, local dive shops could provide the boats and equipment rentals. Even the labs could be housed in a small room in the back of a government building or an unused classroom of a school or small university. We have to work within the confines of today's economy, where there is a true will, there is a way!

 

[Oceanscience]

I will enjoy reading Dr. Kordak's response to that question as well. :-) I thought the MODEL was brilliant, it was the way it was carried out that bothered me, and the lack of follow-through.

Here's what I see for our purposes. How about one facility, on the water with docks and small inexpensive dive boats. Inside would be a few small classrooms, an artifact conservatory, and a small business office. You could run both sides out of one facility, one for archaeology students led by professors, and another for historical tourists led by a wreck diving tour guide. Both classes and activities would be much the same, but we would give the archaeology students the more historically sensitive wrecks, and the tourists would go dive the rum runners or maybe a previously studied civil war wreck.

I do think you could pull history buffs, wreck divers, archaeology students. and damn near every person on this forum if you were offering visually and historically interesting wrecks to dive on. The 6 or so rum runners close to South Bimini might work, sank in a hurricane in 1926 with cargos of illegal liquor heading to the U.S. during Prohibition. A small rum-runners museum would be a fun corner of the bigger picture. In fact, you could put one of these in several locations around the islands and each would pull different sets of tourists. How about train young Bahamians how to be expert magnetometer operators, treasure divers, or museum curators. The possibilities are endless with the education model, I've been in education previously so I know how rewarding (and challenging) it can be. :-)

History buffs dig up and publish historical facts, because the have fun doing that. Historical societies often have collected a vast amount of information. In Peter Trockmorton's shipwreck files, I find sometimes as reference for the information about a shipwreck, (Riley). Who is that person?
Google led me to http://bahamashistoricalsociety.com/journal/i02a01.shtml

I recommend close collaboration with many Historical Societies along the East Coast and all regoins of origin of the ships that wrecked in the Bahamas.

Each shipwreck has it's own story. The more we know about that story, the more compelling the story is, the more valuable are the artifacts that show palpable evidence of the truth of the story.

We can sell a coin only once, but we can sell a story a million times and more.

The educational aspect looks very promising. It combines very well with a not for profit organization. But, let's not forget that this is in the Bahamas, it should be Bahamians running the show. Our role should be as consultants and service providers.

For US citizen to be able to benefit from a tax advantage from a donation, the not for profit organization must be registered in the USA. The US org. can hire services and/or enter into an agreement with a Bahamian counterpart.

 

[Dell Winders]

OS, the Atlantis resort is located on Paradise Island, across the harbour from Nassau. You can see where it is located on Google Earth. Atlantis resort, replaces the Paradise Island hotels and casino that were there previously. I imagine it is a stock traded company with financial reports accessible to the public.

Bimini, was approved for a Casino, and may be suitable for a complimentary Shipwreck museum, because of it's close proximity to Tourist destinations in Florida, however when they dredged & filled to build the tourists resorts they seriously damaged the ecology of the area. Mass tourism to Bimini, would further damage the important, and fragile eco system. Personally, I would have liked to have seen Bimini, remain historic and primitive. They don't need Casino's & Golf courses to pollute and destroy the Eco system.

In my opinion, Conservation has to be a major consideration in any business plan, for the Bahamas. I am happy that only 5 permits have been issued because I am concerned that even Shipwreck salvage may be destructive to sensitive reef areas.

Of course, Archeology itself, is a destructive science. I see the proposed shipwreck archeology in the Bahamas as a salvage archeology, which is good. But, I would like to help develop, and employ methods to isolate the precious metals crucial to the economy, from the rest of the wreckage and surgically extract just the Treasure, minimizing damage and leaving the remains of cultural artifacts in place for further archaeological study. Dell

I'm sorry, my reply was posted before I was finished writing?? The remainder is included in the quote above.

Yes, probable evidence of Atlantis, has been reported in different parts of the world. This is little known, but written about in a Haitian newspaper article. Just a few years ago, the King of Spain, sent a ship with two helicopters, and armed mercenaries on a clandestine mission to Haiti, to find a Treasure cave known by a few locals, because he believed this particular cave contained the records of Atlantis.

I am sorry, this is detracting from the Bahamas, subject. Dell

 

[Darren in NC]

Off the cuff, I wonder if it would be feasible to work with a water park. Then use the existing traffic to move the tourists to the "treasure and history" section of the park. A viewable conservatory could be included, funded by local recovery projects. It could also be funded by documentary/publishing rights (also in collaboration with local projects) along with supplementation from gift shop DVD and souvenir sales. Diving lessons? Certification classes? Seminars and workshops?

 

[Oceanscience]

OS, the Atlantis resort is located on Paradise Island, across the harbour from Nassau. You can see where it is located on Google Earth. Atlantis resort, replaces the Paradise Island hotels and casino that were there previously. I imagine it is a stock traded company with financial reports accessible to the public.

Bimini, was approved for a Casino, and may be suitable for a complimentary Shipwreck museum, because of it's close proximity to Tourist destinations in Florida, however when they dredged & filled to build the tourists resorts they seriously damaged the ecology of the area. Mass tourism to Bimini, would further damage the important, and fragile eco system. Personally, I would have liked to have seen Bimini, remain historic and primitive. They don't need Casino's & Golf courses to pollute and destroy the Eco system.

In my opinion, Conservation has to be a major consideration in any business plan, for the Bahamas. I am happy that only 5 permits have been issued because I am concerned that even Shipwreck salvage may be destructive to sensitive reef areas.

Of course, Archeology itself, is a destructive science. I see the proposed shipwreck archeology in the Bahamas as a salvage archeology, which is good. But, I would like to help develop, and employ methods to isolate the precious metals crucial to the economy, from the rest of the wreckage and surgically extract just the Treasure, minimizing damage and leaving the remains of cultural artifacts in place for further archaeological study. Dell

I'm sorry, my reply was posted before I was finished writing?? The remainder is included in the quote above.

Yes, probable evidence of Atlantis, has been reported in different parts of the world. This is little known, but written about in a Haitian newspaper article. Just a few years ago, the King of Spain, sent a ship with two helicopters, and armed mercenaries on a clandestine mission to Haiti, to find a Treasure cave known by a few locals, because he believed this particular cave contained the records of Atlantis.

I am sorry, this is detracting from the Bahamas, subject. Dell

The subject of Atlantis keeps creeping up in the Bahamas and specially Bimini. There is also the strange fresh water well in the ocean, neat Bimini. "The Fountain Of Youth" Did Ponce De Leon find it?
Chemical analysis showed abnormally high concentration if Lithium in that water. Where does that come from?
When we were searching for the shipwreck belonging to the 15th century anchors, near Eldorado shoals we got many mag hits. They proved to be anchors of every size and age.
However, one very large magnetic anomaly did not produce any iron object. We kept blowing and blowing, with 1100Hp of blowing power. In the end we had cleared the sand over an area over 100 feet diameter and still nothing.
We took a handheld cesium magnetometer down and I swam it across the bedrock bottom in every direction. There was no doubt about the size and location of the magnetic anomaly.

But there was nothing there. Just flat bedrock. Discolored to a color like darkish ashes, in stark contrast to the surrounding bedrock that had the usual beige-white lime stone color.

The size and shape of the magnetic anomaly indicated an object of several tons of iron, buried maybe 50 feet below the bedrock.

I thought of the possibility of it being a meteorite, but nowadays we know that this is not possible.

But what is it?

Jokingly, I called it the gates to Atlantis, because a few miles further south there is the famous causeway.

Off the subject? Not really. Our subject is to find a financially feasible business model. There is no rule that prohibits selling dreams and stories and legends, as long as the buyer knows what he is buying.
And what if somebody offers me 100,000 dollars to show him the place, so that he can knock on the door of Atlantis? Well, I tell him to bring a big hammer.

Talking about stories. I don't remember where I read about the Great Isaac massacre. It must have happened after 1856 when they built the light house. I seem to remember 18 people, including the light house keeper and his family. One morning all these people were found hacked to death.

Does anybody know this story? Where can it be found?

What are the circumstances surrounding the story? Why were there so many people on the island at that time? Was it maybe a guano recovery party? A Mystery. Tourists love to hear mysteries about the places they visit. Mysteries can be turned into cash.

There are many mysteries surrounding shipwrecks. It makes the shipwreck story more fascinating. It makes the digging or shall we say the excavation more exciting. Will we be able to solve the mystery with the information we uncover under the sand, between the ballast or under a cannon?
More often than not, we have more questions than answers that keep us awake after a days hard work digging. Is it really the questions that nag on our mind that keep us awake? Or is it just the sore hands with the multiple cuts?

 

[Dell Winders]

Were you searching for the 1552 Portuguese galleon San Antón do Brasil, alias El Dorado? Dell