A bit of a conundrum or not?

[carl6405]

More on common law, treasure trove

https://global.oup.com/us/companion.websites/9780199838677/chapter3/cases_e/#case99
Cases 100–101. At common law, generally speaking, the determination of possessory rights to found property as between the finder and the owner of the premises on which the property is found depends upon whether the property is deemed to be “mislaid” or “lost.” See above under Cases 45–47a: possession of mislaid property is granted to the owner of the premises; possession of lost property, to the finder. In those jurisdictions that do not recognize the common law doctrine of “treasure trove,” this third category of property, as noted in the comment to Case 99, is usually handled in a manner analogous to “mislaid” property. See, e.g., Corliss v. Wenner, 34 P.3d 1100 (Idaho Ct. App. 2001) (paving company employee was not entitled to possession of cache of 19th century $5 gold coins found while installing a driveway).
Discussion Question:

Do equitable and/or policy arguments have any relevance to how these categorizations of lost property affect the rights of finders as opposed to owners of the land or premises? Should they? See Morgan v. Wiser, 711 SW2d 220 (1985): “[W]e find the rule with respect to treasure-trove to be out of harmony with modern notions of fair play. The common-law rule of treasure-trove invites trespassers to roam at large over the property of others with their metal detecting devices and to dig wherever such devices tell them property might be found.”

 

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[Xraywolf]

"Property is generally deemed to have been abandoned if it is found in a place where the true owner likely intended to leave it,"

Seems to me it is not abandoned, rather lost. Obviously, the "true owner" never intended to lose the ring and have it sit underground for years.

Offhand, I would think that if someone gives you permission to metal detect their property, you are entitled to what you find, unless there was an agreement to the contrary. The biggest complication would be if its a family heirloom, in that case you'd be morally obliged to return it to its rightful owner, the kin. People return lost class rings, some fairly valuable, all the time, why would this be any different if it is named and identifiable ?

 

[DCMatt]

Some info regarding Virginia law:

Mislaid property includes personal items that an owner may have left behind with the intention of coming back and retrieving. Should you come across such an item, and cannot find the owner in the vicinity, does it immediately become yours? Not according to Virginia law. The Code of Virginia states that any tangible property found to be mislaid is not considered to be officially abandoned unless it remains unclaimed for five years.

An example of this may be if you were to find a laptop computer inside a local university testing center or library. If you take the computer, only to be later contacted by the owner asking for it back, you are legally required to return it if the claim is made within a five-year period. If you do not, the owner could have you charged with theft.
An exception to this rule may be if you own a property were a roommate or tenant is staying. State law says that if a rental agreement has ended and you have given notice to the tenant warning that unclaimed items will be disposed of, you can assume ownership of any property left behind 24 hours after the lease has expired.

 

[Mackaydon]

He's your friendly neighbor now, but watch how fast his behavior will change if he hears you found an artifact worth $10,000.
Don...

 

[crashbandicoot]

My two cents.With all that I,ve read by the OP I,d give the thing,whatever it is to the daughter and be done with it.Let it be on her conscience what to do with it and any possible money from it,s sale.I,m not a wealthy person and could certainly use a couple grand but just too much drama here for me to deal with for that possible amount,plus the neighbor who would likely be irked if you continue the present course.I don,t really care what you do and in no way am I condemning or attempting to influence you.That,s just what I,d do given the info presented,Not worth the midnight oil and angst and all that.Good luck to you whatever your course.Jim.

 

[carl6405]

@crashbandicoot What I found is an heirloom from one of our founding fathers.. It is way over 300 years old and in no way connected to the current property owners. Also, I want to see that it goes to a museum or someone or organization that is descended from the old family. If it was something the current family lost, I would've happily handed it over. Your path is what I was on last night, thinking it isnt worth getting people upset until i started thinking about everything again, then researched more on Common Law and the Treasure Trove statute. Also went down this rout due to the property owner wanting to change course and claiming that she is the rightful owner and stated that she had asked her lawyer about it.. and after further research, the law is in favor of the finder as long as i wasn't trespassing.

 

[cudamark]

Just how bad do you want to fight to get your way? Do you want to sour your relationship with your neighbor and have to deal with their ire the rest of the time you live there? I too would rather have a museum buy it if it has historical significance, but, we all need to be realistic and practical. If you really want to fight it legally, I'd consult my own attorney first to see if I had a leg to stand on and would likely prevail in court. Personally, I'd be happy with a 50/50 split with the owner. You never know how a judge will see something like this. You may come up with an empty sack. One sticking point may be the permission issue. Did the daughter have to legal right to grant permission. Nothing is in writing, so, they could just claim that they didn't grant you permission and that you were trespassing. You never know how people are going to react when money is involved. Good Luck!

 

[crashbandicoot]

I wish you all the luck in the world my friend,no sarcasm or criticism intended,Jim.

 

[xaos]

Carl,

Have you attempted to contact the original owners estate? They may be very interested in the find. Provenance is the key to the value here....other than that, a jewellery store will likely determine the melt value, not a historical value..

In Virginia....I believe this is the process...

"When an owner leaves behind personal property with the specific intent to terminate ownership, or when an owner, after a casual and unintentional loss, ceases all efforts to seek and reclaim lost property, the law considers that property abandoned." Title to abandoned property generally vests in the first person to assert dominion and control over it..."

It would appear that you are the first person to assert dominion and control over the item...ie, now the "holder" in the States eyes.

With such an artefact, you would want to make certain that "generally vests" conditions of determination have been met.

Unfortunately, the State of Virginia still holds much the same provisions as the Admiralty Court of England.

Abandoned property is turned over to the State, which then has a certain time to attempt to determine ownership, after which time, if the State cannot determine the owner, the property is auctioned and the holder receives a finders fee. In the State law, the percentage is not listed.

In your case, the State should be able to determine ownership, the artefact is turned over to the owner by the State and you would get the finders fee from the owner, which can be much higher,

Unfortunately, all of this adventure is subject to income tax under the treasure trove act, which I think is about 50%

Please have others check on this information, as State laws and interpretation change with each citation.

There is karma as well...as others have stated, a percentage of $10K may not be worth the unintended consequences.

Good Luck!

 

[Megalodon]

Any update? Has the neighbor found out (yet)?

If the artifact is indeed of historical importance, I agree with you that it should be in a museum. However, the reality with museums today is they are not paying for items; they are more likely to be selling valuable and important art to stay open and pay the electric bill. Museums mostly receive items by donation or loan.

If you do give the item to the current property owner, it would be a pity if it was melted down for its bullion value - which would be a fraction of its historical value.
The property owner could come out ahead by donating the item to the most appropriate museum and then using its appraisal for an income tax deduction. But then again, once out of your hands, you have no control over its fate - even to whether or not the museum chooses to display the item for all to enjoy or to keep it hidden for study or loses it.

Congrats on the exciting find and Good luck!

 

[jasonboise85]

I am curious about an update too.
I have been waiting since your first post to see your artifact.
I hope everything is going alright 👍
Definitely am wondering what's going on with your situation

 

[mts]

@crashbandicoot What I found is an heirloom from one of our founding fathers.. It is way over 300 years old and in no way connected to the current property owners. Also, I want to see that it goes to a museum or someone or organization that is descended from the old family. If it was something the current family lost, I would've happily handed it over. Your path is what I was on last night, thinking it isnt worth getting people upset until i started thinking about everything again, then researched more on Common Law and the Treasure Trove statute. Also went down this rout due to the property owner wanting to change course and claiming that she is the rightful owner and stated that she had asked her lawyer about it.. and after further research, the law is in favor of the finder as long as i wasn't trespassing.

I know you think that it would be nice if some museum displayed it. But the reality for most museums is that they have way more crap than they know what to do with. And they will often just sell extra stuff to make money for improvements. So unless this is something that they specifically think is going to bring in more patrons, or they already have a display available for that item that is related to that founding father, it is probably not going to be displayed. Which means it is going to end up in a drawer in a vault or sold outright.

I love museums, but there is a dark side to them as well. Which would you prefer? a) A museum takes it and puts it into a drawer never to be seen again, b) a museum sells it, c) a collector buys it and cherishes it as a part of their collection?

I realize there are other possible options, but of the ones listed, I'd choose c).

 

[ivan salis]

permission was given to hunt -- but was permission given to TAKE away what was found ? since it was found upon the landowners property abeit with his permission to look around .. its still his "property" and as such one should inform him of the discovery and hope he does right by you for finding it for him

 

[jasonboise85]

I have been following this since day 1. Really would like to know whats happening?
If it is a gold ring from one of our founding father's, it would be nice to see a picture of the thing already, and hear how you are doing with everything that has happened since this find.
I wish you the best of luck with everything, and hope you finally come back on here and let us all know whats going on

 

[jasonboise85]

What's up with this 🤔

 

[Rmeav8r]

I’ve followed this on and off like others for a while...my 2 cents
Very few of “us” are in this for money or recognition....so why not take the item to a reputable appraiser to verify it’s authenticity...then if it’s the rare historical item you think it is...list it with a reputable auction house. Split the proceeds with the owner...everyone wins, someone gets a fantastic item for their collection, conscious cleared. Just my two cents.
Oh yea..share this item in photos with the rest of us when you decide what to do....we’re not a museum but the exposure here will be a service to thousands of serious history buffs that keep this forum alive.

 

[Honest Samuel]

Time to talk to your own lawyer.

 

[Dejure]

THE END: If it's not in writing, it didn't happen (permission, sharing, etc.).

As I tell people, ALWAYS make a paper trail when it could count. For example, I have seen many times when public agents claimed one thing, until they were handed the information they were commenting about (e.g., a complaint) in writing, then their entire stance changed.

In the above case, before I told the owner anything, I'd enter a written agreement, then I'd handle my share of the affair my way, let them have their share and call it a day.

Without a written agreement, and if you shared, you could be taken to court for the remainder of the find.

As to the share I'd strive for, it depends. First, merely that someone owns a significant chunk of dirt does not mean they are wealthy. They could still be living hand to mouth, and I would be inclined to work for something closer to a 50-50 split. If, on the other hand, the person showed all the earmarks of living well, I'd shoot for 25% and the small stuff wouldn't count at all.