*3/23/11 Update...Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar/Collar Device/Victorian Bar Pin?

[umrgolf]

Curious to hear your thoughts about this piece.. seems very similar to alot of things .. was tested at 14K, no markings

the piece was found in a Confederate camp and measures 31mm x 8mm

thanks to those of you who are voicing opinions

​

 

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[oldfireguy]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar/Collar Device/Name Bar/Victorian Bar Pin?

Maybe consider posting the photo on here.

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/

 

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[{Sentinel}]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar/Collar Device/Victorian Bar Pin/Name Badge?

The "army" didn't start doing it till 1917... the confederacy was doing it for its shavetails 55 years earlier...

My reference was post civil war. I believe the bar they are talking about is the embroidered collar device. I am not aware of pin on rank devices being used during the CW.

As a rule you are Generally right, they had sewn/embroidered collar insignia, However, for Confederate soldiers out in the Western Confederacy, many whom didn't have the fancy uniforms, there were instances of pin on collar devices much like the pin on Corps Badges that the Union soldiers wore here in the East. If this is a military item, it would've been a personal item, made for a 2nd Lieut. and pinned on his shirt or Civilian Froak Coat showing his rank. Many of the Confederate Irregulars wore such items as this, home-made and non standard items, as most did not have standard Gray Uniforms but mostly a hodge podge of Civilian Clothing.

 

[umrgolf]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar/Collar Device/Name Bar/Victorian Bar Pin?

Maybe consider posting the photo on here.

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/

very cool site, will post there shortly

ok, I registered and they said the forum administrator has to review all new accounts before you can post however long that takes

If I missed it in an earlier post I apologize but has anyone brought up the possibility that this could be a 2nd lieutenants insignia from either a militia unit or military academy graduate? It strongly resembles a 2nd lt. rank insignia but it looks like it might have been made specifically for a young officer as a gift from a proud father or something along those lines. Without any markings on the piece it could be very difficult to nail this one down if it was made specifically for an individual. Just my $.02 worth, good luck getting a positive ID on it (if it was mine you would have a hard time convincing me that it WASN'T a 2nd louie's). Great find,

HH Charlie

I agree with you 100%.. Until I see a victorian bar pin that's rectangular in shape & very thick, with a somewhat "dull" engraving, I am going to hold on to hope that it could be something unique.

 

[umrgolf]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar/Collar Device/Name Bar/Victorian Bar Pin?

I have thought about this for awhile & read the various thoughts. At this time, there is only a very tentative connection with anything CW. I always have believed in starting from a blank sheet, as we all know that not everything on a Roman Villa Site is Roman. That said, it very well could be period, but I think its likely to turn out to be Civilian in origin. My my gut feeling holds no more water than anyones elses right now, evidence of similar ones are lacking right now. The thing that does spring to mind (in terms of looks) & has been mentioned is the top of a ribbon for maybe a medallion or fob.

Things we are sure about are that its 19th C (probably late) & Gold

I agree that it's tough to say it's associated with anything military.. I'll bring up the same point I did earlier though.. for someone to hunt this remote field (cow pasture) for 10 years and not find a single Indian Head cent, wheat cent, V-nickel, or Barber coin, yet have such a spectacular piece of "Victorian jewelry" turn up just doesn't make much sense when there's been so many early silver coins ranging anywhere from 1749-1854 and one or two other pieces of unmarked gold jewelry (think he showed me two rings, could have just been one though).... Either way, this is one that will never be solved unless we see something very similar.

 

[nova treasure]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar/Collar Device/Name Bar/Victorian Bar Pin?

The 2nd lieutenant bars were usually embroidered cloth, but with the exception that 14kt gold bars were pinned on at Graduation at the U.S Military Academy.

Nova Treasure

 

[umrgolf]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar/Collar Device/Name Bar/Victorian Bar Pin?

The 2nd lieutenant bars were usually embroidered cloth, but with the exception that 14kt gold bars were pinned on at Graduation at the U.S Military Academy.

Nova Treasure

awesome info!! just googled it and see your reference.. can't wait to contact West Point!

 

[umrgolf]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar/Collar Device/Name Bar/Victorian Bar Pin?

wanted to add- when I contact West Point I highly doubt I'll find a match through them... very interested to find out when this tradition began though, because if it's as early as I hope, it will make this one very interesting.. maybe a custom that was used at several smaller military academies?.. "Savant365" I hope you're still following this

If I missed it in an earlier post I apologize but has anyone brought up the possibility that this could be a 2nd lieutenants insignia from either a militia unit or military academy graduate? It strongly resembles a 2nd lt. rank insignia but it looks like it might have been made specifically for a young officer as a gift from a proud father or something along those lines. Without any markings on the piece it could be very difficult to nail this one down if it was made specifically for an individual. Just my $.02 worth, good luck getting a positive ID on it (if it was mine you would have a hard time convincing me that it WASN'T a 2nd louie's). Great find,

HH Charlie

 

[ivan salis]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar/Collar Device/Name Bar/Victorian Bar Pin?

a shavetail is a newly "made" greenhorn type officer of 2nd LT status * --in war time ( like WW2)some were also called "90 day wonders" --because of the brief training peroid many 2nd LT's had --- snipers often targeted officers during the war and so there was a high turnover rate for lower level combat officers --

when one graduated from a military officers school --one would often recieve a gold "rank' bar many also had gold "class rings" as well .

west pointers are often nicked name "ring knockers"

 

[Culinary Caveman]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar/Collar Device/Name Bar/Victorian Bar Pin?

jmo, but it looks a lot like a tie pin to me, especially the fastner on the back.

 

[umrgolf]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar/Collar Device/Name Bar/Victorian Bar Pin?

jmo, but it looks a lot like a tie pin to me, especially the fastner on the back.

ok, so i wasted my time posting the fastener on the corps badge.. and now that we know Military schools issued 14K gold 2nd Louie bars at some point, you still think it resembles a tie pin? none of the google images looked like this one.

not saying it isnt a tie pin but it clearly resembles a rank insignia.

 

[ASG3]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar/Collar Device/Name Bar/Victorian Bar Pin?

Hey Jeff I've been following this thread and I have to say it's a very interesting find. I hope it turns out to be of military origin. I'll check back in on Monday after work to see if you had a chance to contact the USMA. Good luck

 

[Culinary Caveman]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar/Collar Device/Name Bar/Victorian Bar Pin?

Not a waste of time at all and I didn't meam to offend. It just seems to me that I remember my grandfather having a tie pin that was similar to the pic though it had his name engraved in the center. As I said jmo, though I do hope that it turns out to be CW military for you.

 

[umrgolf]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar/Collar Device/Name Bar/Victorian Bar Pin?

Not a waste of time at all and I didn't meam to offend. It just seems to me that I remember my grandfather having a tie pin that was similar to the pic though it had his name engraved in the center. As I said jmo, though I do hope that it turns out to be CW military for you.

no offense was taken, just trying to keep my argument alive since I'm likely in the minority.. I keep searching through all these google images and see similar Victorian era pins, but nothing that I would call close

 

[Don in SJ]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar/Collar Device/Name Bar/Victorian Bar Pin?

Interesting find and discussions. I don't think it is military, don't believe any of the quotes of gold when referring to the military hardware really means 14k solid gold. As far as I know, but could be wrong, the Lt bar has always been either gold colored thru plating or gold colored brass, not solid gold, only the special graduation 2nd Lt bars of the Military academy are 14k gold and they are engraved on the back side with year of graduation.

The jeweler that tested your pin, did he cut into the pin for his test of just apply something on top of the surface? If so, was he sure it was solid gold?

As far as being Confederate., whether issue or private, I found this photo and this example is nowhere near your pin in appearance.

I think as you have stated, you may never know what the use was for sure, keeping this post alive will hopefully in the long run come to a positive answer. (And it is not fun having a UNK like this, you always want a good answer)

Don

 

[savant365]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar/Collar Device/Name Bar/Victorian Bar Pin?

I know this is not the same time period as the other finds at the site but here is a catalogue from 1928 that sells gold 2nd Lt. bars. page 12 item #29329 second L.t bars, pair, gilt$1.50 rolled gold $2.50

http://www.scribd.com/doc/32341206/BB-B-Bailey-Banks-Biddle-Co-Catalog-1928

So at least we know that 2nd Lt. bars were available in gold to any 2nd Lt. Now if we can just find a reference that dates a little closer to the rest of the finds from the site.

Charlie

 

[Don in SJ]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar/Collar Device/Name Bar/Victorian Bar Pin?

I know this is not the same time period as the other finds at the site but here is a catalogue from 1928 that sells gold 2nd Lt. bars. page 12 item #29329 second L.t bars, pair, gilt$1.50 rolled gold $2.50

http://www.scribd.com/doc/32341206/BB-B-Bailey-Banks-Biddle-Co-Catalog-1928

So at least we know that 2nd Lt. bars were available in gold to any 2nd Lt. Now if we can just find a reference that dates a little closer to the rest of the finds from the site.

Charlie

Charlie, those bars are only plated bars, gilt or rolled is not solid gold. I really think trying to prove military will be fruitless, more so than something civilian IMHO.



Don

 

[savant365]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar/Collar Device/Name Bar/Victorian Bar Pin?

Learn something new here all the time...

Rolled gold is a very thin sheet of gold that is laminated to a lesser metal (usually brass). The two layers of metal are heated under pressure to fuse them together. The sheet is them rolled into a very thin sheet and then used to make jewelry or other objects. Jewelry made from rolled gold wear well over time. Rolled gold pieces are marked rolled gold plate, R.G.P., or plaqué d'or laminé.

 

[umrgolf]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar/Collar Device/Name Bar/Victorian Bar Pin?

Interesting find and discussions. I don't think it is military, don't believe any of the quotes of gold when referring to the military hardware really means 14k solid gold. As far as I know, but could be wrong, the Lt bar has always been either gold colored thru plating or gold colored brass, not solid gold, only the special graduation 2nd Lt bars of the Military academy are 14k gold and they are engraved on the back side with year of graduation.

The jeweler that tested your pin, did he cut into the pin for his test of just apply something on top of the surface? If so, was he sure it was solid gold?

As far as being Confederate., whether issue or private, I found this photo and this example is nowhere near your pin in appearance.

I think as you have stated, you may never know what the use was for sure, keeping this post alive will hopefully in the long run come to a positive answer. (And it is not fun having a UNK like this, you always want a good answer)

Don

Unfortunately, the jeweler rubbed one of the corners off to test it Definitely not plated or I don't think he would have made an offer.. The confederate 2nd Louie picture you attached is not very close. At this point, I don't think this was any kind of confederate issue. I know the odds are against me, but if it is a 2nd Lt bar, I think savant was the closest when he said possibly a custom item made for a son from a proud father, or possibly a graduate at a smaller academy that was following the tradition set by west point anyway, I contacted a lady at West Point to find out if the bars have ever actually been 14K gold and when the tradition started and she's contacting me back today or tomorrow

 

[umrgolf]

Finally got a chance to speak with an individual who is considered by many "The Man" on Civil War rank insignias (Mike S.). He says he highly doubts that this was a military piece and seemed to go along with dg39 and others who thought tie bar. Oh well Thanks again to all who spent time investigating!

 

[Breezie]

Tonight is the first time I've seen this post, and I have not read every word, but just judging by the photos it looks to be a ladies Victorian Bar Pin, which also made a come back in the late 1950's/1960s. GREAT find, Breezie