*3/23/11 Update...Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar/Collar Device/Victorian Bar Pin?

[umrgolf]

Curious to hear your thoughts about this piece.. seems very similar to alot of things .. was tested at 14K, no markings

the piece was found in a Confederate camp and measures 31mm x 8mm

thanks to those of you who are voicing opinions

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[oldfireguy]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar?

I don't think CSA officers wore shoulder straps. They had their rank embroidered on their collars. Union officers wore straps but they didn't look like that. There made of cloth and embroidered with wire.

 

[umrgolf]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar?

I don't think CSA officers wore shoulder straps. They had their rank embroidered on their collars. Union officers wore straps but they didn't look like that. There made of cloth and embroidered with wire.

Wow, it seems you are right... If it is a civil war rank insignia, it would have to be of Union origin. nice catch

btw, I know the Union issue were cloth, just thinking that if this a rank device, its custom and one of a kind.

 

[Kiros32]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar?

My only question would be, would a 2nd Lt. wear a gold shoulder bar? Gold was a thing of privilege and wealth then as it is now. Not saying that there were no 2nd Lt.'s with the means, however, if I was his ranking officer, I wouldn't want him wearing such an item.

 

[MKnTenn]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar?

On the fastening device on the back it looks strange to be a pin, have you looked closely to see what kind of attachments were on those spots? I'm not sure what it is but it was a great find, I would be very happy to find it. HH

 

[umrgolf]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar?

My only question would be, would a 2nd Lt. wear a gold shoulder bar? Gold was a thing of privilege and wealth then as it is now. Not saying that there were no 2nd Lt.'s with the means, however, if I was his ranking officer, I wouldn't want him wearing such an item.

that is a very good point too.. maybe it was part of a dress uniform ... then again, even the high ranking officers likely didn't have solid gold, customized rank insignias grrrrrrr, this piece is so up and down.. I start thinking one way, then hear something that makes it go the other direction I'll just throw this out there .... IM LOST

On the fastening device on the back it looks strange to be a pin, have you looked closely to see what kind of attachments were on those spots? I'm not sure what it is but it was a great find, I would be very happy to find it. HH

the fastening device is referred to as a "T-bar" design, the same design on the period corps badges, etc.

 

[oldfireguy]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar?

Bars were not worn on uniforms until 1917 for Lt's. It's possible this is some sort of ribbon attachment but I doubt it's a military rank.

I'm not sure when sweetheart items came out because it's not my area of interest but could it be a sweetheart item for a female?

 

[dg39]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar?

I answered this in a previous post. It was a bar pin or ladies hair pin. The mounting is of that style and from late 1800's to early 1900's.
Style and craftmanship is from a later period than the civil war. I base this on almost 40 years of working in the antique field.
But I have been wrong before...
DG

 

[umrgolf]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar?

I answered this in a previous post. It was a bar pin or ladies hair pin. The mounting is of that style and from late 1800's to early 1900's.
Style and craftmanship is from a later period than the civil war. I base this on almost 40 years of working in the antique field.
But I have been wrong before...
DG

In no way am I insisting that you were wrong, that's why it's all in the form of question. I have forwarded pictures to other guys with several years of experience who believe the clasp design was used during the CW . I am only trying to hear several opinions. The only concern I have with your ID is that Matt has been hunting this site for 10 years, and not one significant find that he showed me was post- Civil War. This would be the first one out of several hundred relics that have been recovered in this field. Of the 30+ coins he's found (and my two), all pre-1855, several confederate bullets, numerous flat buttons etc, etc. The ONLY things that I saw that were post-war were a handfull of shotgun shells, so maybe someone hunting around the time frame you mentioned dropped this item in the middle of a CW camp?

Also, do you have pictures of similar items? I'd be interested to see them.

 

[umrgolf]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar?

Bars were not worn on uniforms until 1917 for Lt's. It's possible this is some sort of ribbon attachment but I doubt it's a military rank.

I'm not sure when sweetheart items came out because it's not my area of interest but could it be a sweetheart item for a female?

I'm confused by the last couple sentences of this page. Is this in reference to the collar device?

 

[umrgolf]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar?

I answered this in a previous post. It was a bar pin or ladies hair pin. The mounting is of that style and from late 1800's to early 1900's.Style and craftmanship is from a later period than the civil war. I base this on almost 40 years of working in the antique field.
But I have been wrong before...
DG

also, one of the guys I spoke with sent me this picture of a 6th corps CW badge with the same clasp design he referred to as a "T-bar"

 

[chukers]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar?

Bars were not worn on uniforms until 1917 for Lt's. It's possible this is some sort of ribbon attachment but I doubt it's a military rank.

I'm not sure when sweetheart items came out because it's not my area of interest but could it be a sweetheart item for a female?

The "army" didn't start doing it till 1917... the confederacy was doing it for its shavetails 55 years earlier...

"Shavetail" is used as a nickname for new soldiers

and I believe umrgolf said it was found in a confederate area. I still am not sure what it is but thats why were here to narrow it down... The 2nd lieutenant dress uniform shoulder bar is the closest I have found to it yet... If something like that even existed...

I think its civil war era pin but to what we still don't know for sure.

Chukers....

 

[chkn]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar?

Somebody else dug one here about two weeks ago.

 

[dg39]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar?

Would not the border design be consistant with the cloth device?

DG

 

[umrgolf]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar?

Would not the border design be consistant with the cloth device?

DG

I agree that if you were trying to reproduce the lined cloth pattern, you wouldn't want to engrave a chain design. But in the same sense, if this was a custom made item, wouldn't you want it to stand out? I know there were uniform regs, but from what I've been told, they weren't as strict as today's. As I said earlier, you could very well be right on, but if there is any possibility of it being something earlier, I'm interested. I googled images of the victorian bar pins and I saw they also had the same clasp and some were similar, but I didn't see any that were real close to a match... but I definitely see how you came to your conclusion. If you had found it in the same provenance, would you write it off as a victorian bar pin?

 

[Silver Searcher]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar?

I answered this in a previous post. It was a bar pin or ladies hair pin. The mounting is of that style and from late 1800's to early 1900's.
Style and craftmanship is from a later period than the civil war. I base this on almost 40 years of working in the antique field.
But I have been wrong before...
DG

You gave an opinion in the previous post which was wrong it's far to heavily made for your guess it's a name bar

SS

 

[{Sentinel}]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar?

If its a military Item, the officer who had it made would probably want something different than the standard "lines" in the pattern like everyone else had, he's going to want to distinguish himself and make his look better, after all, he's paid the money and gone the extra mile to have a real gold collar bar made for his use.
I can say this, I've reenacted for several years and would definitely wear it on my uniform. Over the years I've seen Lt. Bars anywhere from 1" to 2" long so it is definitely within those parameters.

 

[oldfireguy]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar/Collar Device/Victorian Bar Pin/Name Badge?

The "army" didn't start doing it till 1917... the confederacy was doing it for its shavetails 55 years earlier...

My reference was post civil war. I believe the bar they are talking about is the embroidered collar device. I am not aware of pin on rank devices being used during the CW.

 

[umrgolf]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar/Collar Device/Victorian Bar Pin/Name Badge?

The "army" didn't start doing it till 1917... the confederacy was doing it for its shavetails 55 years earlier...

My reference was post civil war. I believe the bar they are talking about is the embroidered collar device. I am not aware of pin on rank devices being used during the CW.

I think everyone agrees with that statement. This item wasn't mass-produced & issued, whatever its purpose.

 

[savant365]

Re: Civil War Gold Shoulder Bar/Collar Device/Name Bar/Victorian Bar Pin?

If I missed it in an earlier post I apologize but has anyone brought up the possibility that this could be a 2nd lieutenants insignia from either a militia unit or military academy graduate? It strongly resembles a 2nd lt. rank insignia but it looks like it might have been made specifically for a young officer as a gift from a proud father or something along those lines. Without any markings on the piece it could be very difficult to nail this one down if it was made specifically for an individual. Just my $.02 worth, good luck getting a positive ID on it (if it was mine you would have a hard time convincing me that it WASN'T a 2nd louie's). Great find,

HH Charlie