1804 Lg. Cent i need a grade and advise ?

[Mike in Berks]

hi all i'm snowed in here i dug this key date in 1998 and unfortunately it looks
worse now than when i cleaned it due to the fact the only knowledge i had back then
was use olive oil on coppers in 97 the red book said AG - 3 250.00
04 said 300.00
09 says 700.00

so it seems to me it's only going to go up in price i've had 3 offers so far 250, 300
then 325.00 about 2yrs back an i could'nt let it go i know there were only
96,500 minted so, im always wondering how many are out there yet ( lost - in the
ground versus in the collectors hands ) anyhoo i got 3 questions
1. what would you grade this coin ( lousy pic's ) ? 2. is it worth sending it out to get
cleaned, graded, and sealed....and to who ? 3. should i have just taken the 325.00 ?
the obv. LIB is weak ERTY is better 1804 is clear with a crosslet 4

the rev. A is weak MERICA is better


any and all advice appreciated ...... HH

 

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[waseeker]

It is difficult to tell from the pictures but it appears that your coin does not have either the obverse or reverse rim breaks. That helps a bit as the 1804 without the rim breaks is slightly rarer.


I would give it a technical grade of AG3. However, most folks who would be interested in it would also deduct for the verdigris (green stuff) and corrosion.

As for slabbing, ANACS would slab it. You could send it to NCS (the conservation arm of NGC). They would curate(clean) it and slab it. The main thing you want with either of them is the designation on the label as genuine. I do not know the current PCGS policies on corroded coins. At one time they wouldn't touch them.

Current Grey Sheet lists the 1804 in AG at $325.00. If you can get anywhere near that it's a good deal.

 

[Mike in Berks]

It is difficult to tell from the pictures but it appears that your coin does not have either the obverse or reverse rim breaks. That helps a bit as the 1804 without the rim breaks is slightly rarer.


I would give it a technical grade of AG3. However, most folks who would be interested in it would also deduct for the verdigris (green stuff) and corrosion.

As for slabbing, ANACS would slab it. You could send it to NCS (the conservation arm of NGC). They would curate(clean) it and slab it. The main thing you want with either of them is the designation on the label as genuine. I do not know the current PCGS policies on corroded coins. At one time they wouldn't touch them.

Current Grey Sheet lists the 1804 in AG at $325.00. If you can get anywhere near that it's a good deal.

thanks for the reply and info waseeker as far as the rim break this was found about 2 ft away from
an 1821 lg. cent in VG condition so i'm guessing they were lost in the 1840 - 50's i wasn't aware that
some had the break and others did'nt if i remember right i was at a coin show and the
dealer said AG he offered me 300 i checked out PCGS before i posted this from what i read they don't
do problem coins this morning i learned the meaning of verdigris and i checked out NGC and NCS
i have their ph. number now when found i checked the red book .......... i could'nt believe what i had
the crosslet 4 the 0 in 1804 in line with the rev. I in the word IN but in 10 yrs. the IN has dissappeared
i did read about steps to remove the olive oil in it and stablize it but, i'm better off letting NCS handle that
once i know what the cost is to do it seems to me if they can clean, preserve, and slab it....... >genuine<
it would be worth holding on to
thanks again for all the info you provided you helped me out big time

 

[madmacabre]

Looks to me that the coin in in AG condition 2 or 3 . The value , to me at least would be around 200 on ebay due to the soft market these days. The offer for 325 was very reasonable

 

[Mike in Berks]

Looks to me that the coin in in AG condition 2 or 3 . The value , to me at least would be around 200 on ebay due to the soft market these days. The offer for 325 was very reasonable

thanks for your reply and input madmacabre i'm suprised by what you say about ebay
i imagined a lot higher..... more so if it would be slabbed (genuine) i gotta get on the phone
and call NGC - NCS and go from there i guess the only thing in the Red Book i can rely on is
the "mintage numbers" from now on

thanks again ........ HH

 

[waseeker]

The diagnostics you describe make the 1804 very easy to authenticate. There was only one obverse die and 1 reverse die used that year. No other draped bust coin has the O of OF opposite the 0 in the date. Because of this the 1804 is counterfeited less than most early date LC. However, there are lots of counterfeit coins of all types on eBay and having it slabbed as genuine will be a plus should you ever decide to go that route.

As for pricing, remember that Red book is only published once a year and the 2009 edition was out well before Jan 1. A more realistic guide for prices is the Coin Dealer Newsletter commonly referred to as The Grey Sheet.

In the world of LC collectors there are typically 3 levels within a particular grade. Those are Choice, Average and Scudzy. For an 1804 in AG3, my copy of Copper Quotes (2001) lists following prices for S266a (No die breaks). Choice - $425.00 Average $350.00 Scudzy $150.00. Of course 3 levels is not enough so some folks also will look at Average + and Average -.

I once owned an 1804 that was absolutely gorgeous as far as color and condition were concerned, unfortunately it only graded Fair 2. There was enough of the date and the OF to verify it was an 1804. There was not a scratch or bit of corrosion on the coin and it was a beautiful honey color, but it was just flat worn out

LC prices are adjusted in the various guides based on dealer transaction reports and also auction reports. Over the past 3-4 years there have been some auctions containing some very very very nice large cents. Because of the condition of the coins in these auctions and the pedigree of the coin(s), they often bring higher prices than the "normal" cent.

Your best bet is to get the corrosion stabilized and then slabbed. Since the corrosion has started it will most likely continue.

I apologize if this was a bit long. Large Cents are my favorite, and were the main focus of my collecting effort for many years. I sold them, but still like them and like to talk about them.

 

[Mike in Berks]

The diagnostics you describe make the 1804 very easy to authenticate. There was only one obverse die and 1 reverse die used that year. No other draped bust coin has the O of OF opposite the 0 in the date. Because of this the 1804 is counterfeited less than most early date LC. However, there are lots of counterfeit coins of all types on eBay and having it slabbed as genuine will be a plus should you ever decide to go that route.

As for pricing, remember that Red book is only published once a year and the 2009 edition was out well before Jan 1. A more realistic guide for prices is the Coin Dealer Newsletter commonly referred to as The Grey Sheet.

In the world of LC collectors there are typically 3 levels within a particular grade. Those are Choice, Average and Scudzy. For an 1804 in AG3, my copy of Copper Quotes (2001) lists following prices for S266a (No die breaks). Choice - $425.00 Average $350.00 Scudzy $150.00. Of course 3 levels is not enough so some folks also will look at Average + and Average -.

I once owned an 1804 that was absolutely gorgeous as far as color and condition were concerned, unfortunately it only graded Fair 2. There was enough of the date and the OF to verify it was an 1804. There was not a scratch or bit of corrosion on the coin and it was a beautiful honey color, but it was just flat worn out

LC prices are adjusted in the various guides based on dealer transaction reports and also auction reports. Over the past 3-4 years there have been some auctions containing some very very very nice large cents. Because of the condition of the coins in these auctions and the pedigree of the coin(s), they often bring higher prices than the "normal" cent.

Your best bet is to get the corrosion stabilized and then slabbed. Since the corrosion has started it will most likely continue.

I apologize if this was a bit long. Large Cents are my favorite, and were the main focus of my collecting effort for many years. I sold them, but still like them and like to talk about them.

no need to apologize waseeker i enjoyed reading it
i kinda goofed writing 0 in line with IN i'm gonna have to get one of those gray sheets
i'm glad you provided me with that no. S266a (no die breaks) thanks much
if only i would've had this information 10yrs. ago i gotta make that call to NGC soon for sure
i'm glad you like talking about them and sharing your knowledge i really do appreciate it ..... HH

 

[Monty]

What is done to a coin when it is slabbed? Monty

 

[Mike in Berks]

What is done to a coin when it is slabbed? Monty

i've never had it done Monty called them today an their sending me the papers
this might help you ? http://www.ngccoin.com/coingrading/encapsulating3.asp
first time i'm posting a link i hope it works

 

[jeff of pa]

I am going to go out on a Limb & say

G-4 on Details

Simply because Red book says

AG-3 Clear enough to Identify

G-4 Lettering Worn but Clear, Date Clear, Bust Lacks Detail

& You said ( lousy pic's ) Meaning a little Better in Person.

 

[waseeker]

I am going to go out on a Limb & say

G-4 on Details

Simply because Red book says

AG-3 Clear enough to Identify

G-4 Lettering Worn but Clear, Date Clear, Bust Lacks Detail

& You said ( lousy pic's ) Meaning a little Better in Person.

Lettering worn but Clear means although the lettering may be worn ALL letters can be seen. That is not the case with this one.

 

[Mike in Berks]

I am going to go out on a Limb & say

G-4 on Details

Simply because Red book says

AG-3 Clear enough to Identify

G-4 Lettering Worn but Clear, Date Clear, Bust Lacks Detail

& You said ( lousy pic's ) Meaning a little Better in Person.

thanks jeff you are right about a little better in person.......with a good loupe
i think it was about 4 - 5yrs ago i went to a coin show near Reading i told the guy
what would ya give me for it i said i had 1 offer already he said what was the offer
i said 250 he then said i'll give you 300 he was from Tennessee and he said it
was AG no 2 or 3 just AG he was a buyer though he has to make a profit $$
and that made me think what is this coin really worth ?

 

[Mike in Berks]

I am going to go out on a Limb & say

G-4 on Details

Simply because Red book says

AG-3 Clear enough to Identify

G-4 Lettering Worn but Clear, Date Clear, Bust Lacks Detail

& You said ( lousy pic's ) Meaning a little Better in Person.

Lettering worn but Clear means although the lettering may be worn ALL letters can be seen. That is not the case with this one.

waseeker i learned another lesson today thanks much from what their web site
says this might be a " problem coin " ? i hope they can save it for a reasonable price

 

[jeff of pa]

I am going to go out on a Limb & say

G-4 on Details

Simply because Red book says

AG-3 Clear enough to Identify

G-4 Lettering Worn but Clear, Date Clear, Bust Lacks Detail

& You said ( lousy pic's ) Meaning a little Better in Person.

thanks jeff you are right about a little better in person.......with a good loupe
i think it was about 4 - 5yrs ago i went to a coin show near Reading i told the guy
what would ya give me for it i said i had 1 offer already he said what was the offer
i said 250 he then said i'll give you 300 he was from Tennessee and he said it
was AG no 2 or 3 just AG he was a buyer though he has to make a profit $$
and that made me think what is this coin really worth ?

Yes That's another reason.

Most dealers pay A.B.P. (I think it's called Gray sheet)
Which is 1/3 to 1/2 Value.

 

[utah hunter]

I would be willing to pay $275 for it today if that gives you a good idea...Ryan

 

[waseeker]

I am going to go out on a Limb & say

G-4 on Details

Simply because Red book says

AG-3 Clear enough to Identify

G-4 Lettering Worn but Clear, Date Clear, Bust Lacks Detail

& You said ( lousy pic's ) Meaning a little Better in Person.

Lettering worn but Clear means although the lettering may be worn ALL letters can be seen. That is not the case with this one.

waseeker i learned another lesson today thanks much from what their web site
says this might be a " problem coin " ? i hope they can save it for a reasonable price

Mike - Unfortunately it is a problem coin. What you hope for in this case is that they can stabilize the coin (stop the corrosion), and that they will then feel good enough about it to put it in a slab. It'll probably say something like "Environmental Damage". But it should also say genuine and probably they will give it a details grade such as "AG Details"

My nephew found a 1901S Barber quarter with his MD a year or so ago. Unfortunately in clearing the dirt to see the date and mint mark he put some small scratches on it. It came back from ANACS as cleaned. oh well, still a great coin.

 

[waseeker]

Today's grading "standards" tend to get me on my soapbox. I was going to go into a long discourse about how gradeflation has occurred over the 40+ years I've been involved with coins. I was also going to go into the origins of the 70 point grading system, and the utter foolishness of an 11 point system for MS coins (60-70). Instead I'll just say that when I went to sell my collection every single coin graded at least one and sometimes 2 grades higher than it did when I purchased it.

My favorite story has been attributed to many dealers, but essentially a customer asked him what he would grade a particular coin in the dealers inventory. The dealers response was that it graded $175.00.

In other words, the grade doesn't mean a thing. If your are willing to pay a particular price for a coin and the seller is willing to sell it for that price, then it's a good deal for both of you.

 

[Mike in Berks]

I would be willing to pay $275 for it today if that gives you a good idea...Ryan

thanks for the offer utah hunter i don't plan on selling this one though
just getting it preserved, graded, and slabbed i'm gonna save it - an enjoy it

 

[Mike in Berks]

I am going to go out on a Limb & say

G-4 on Details

Simply because Red book says

AG-3 Clear enough to Identify

G-4 Lettering Worn but Clear, Date Clear, Bust Lacks Detail

& You said ( lousy pic's ) Meaning a little Better in Person.

Lettering worn but Clear means although the lettering may be worn ALL letters can be seen. That is not the case with this one.

waseeker i learned another lesson today thanks much from what their web site
says this might be a " problem coin " ? i hope they can save it for a reasonable price

Mike - Unfortunately it is a problem coin. What you hope for in this case is that they can stabilize the coin (stop the corrosion), and that they will then feel good enough about it to put it in a slab. It'll probably say something like "Environmental Damage". But it should also say genuine and probably they will give it a details grade such as "AG Details"

My nephew found a 1901S Barber quarter with his MD a year or so ago. Unfortunately in clearing the dirt to see the date and mint mark he put some small scratches on it. It came back from ANACS as cleaned. oh well, still a great coin.

waseeker thats what i'm hoping for stabilize, grade genuine, and slab it i might send the 1821 in too
i doubt i'll ever dig another 1804......and i dug an 1821 2ft away from it same place - same day 2 key dates
congrats to your nephew finding the 01S i messed up quite a few times myself..... way to many times

 

[Mike in Berks]

Today's grading "standards" tend to get me on my soapbox. I was going to go into a long discourse about how gradeflation has occurred over the 40+ years I've been involved with coins. I was also going to go into the origins of the 70 point grading system, and the utter foolishness of an 11 point system for MS coins (60-70). Instead I'll just say that when I went to sell my collection every single coin graded at least one and sometimes 2 grades higher than it did when I purchased it.

My favorite story has been attributed to many dealers, but essentially a customer asked him what he would grade a particular coin in the dealers inventory. The dealers response was that it graded $175.00.

In other words, the grade doesn't mean a thing. If your are willing to pay a particular price for a coin and the seller is willing to sell it for that price, then it's a good deal for both of you.

waseeker only 40yrs. wowsa i do have an ANA Grading Standards book here it doesn't really help me
much unless it's on the slab as far as selling ? which i don't plan too at this time 70 point grading
sounds like you made out great on your collection
thank you for all the advise and knowledge you have shared with me i'll let you all know
how it turns out ............... HH