1715 plate fleet wreck north of Sabastian Inlet. Florida?

[wreckdiver1715]

I believe that Hampton Court was renamed Nuestra Senora del Carmen after its capture at sea.

 

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[rgecy]

I have a question about the Rio Mar wreck. The last time I was down after the Hurricanes, there was a good bit of what appeared to possibly be ballast (or maybe just some rock formations) just off the beach at the very point of Rio Mar. Is this the balast pile of the Carmen or some other wreck?

It was litteraly 40-50 feet off the beach!

Robert in SC

 

[mad4wrecks]

Re: 1715 plate fleet wreck north of Sebastian Inlet. Florida?

Wreckdiver1715 is correct, the Hampton Court was an English ship that was renamed Nuestra Senora del Carmen after its capture at sea.

At Rio Mar, during extreme low tides, the reef and rock outcroppings are sometime visible above the waterline. It is possible this is what you saw. The area around the Cabin Wreck is the same way-the first reef line is often high and dry and you can walk across it.

 

[Salvor6]

Hey Wreckdiver1715, according to Bob Weller nothing significant has ever been found on the Rosario even though this was one of the largest in the fleet. What do you think happened to it? Did the treasure drift further south?

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Salvor6, It?s all at Bobs house LOL, just kidding Bob. The size of the ship is irrelevant if it did not have any treasure aboard her. Though she was a 450 Ton Galleon with an impressive 54 cannon aboard her she carried very little treasure. She was the Almiranta to General Echeverz fleet, and most all his ships were almost completely void of any treasure. According to the manifest the Rosario only carried a little over 15,000 pesos in gold and silver. The bulk of her cargo was hides, chocolate, barzilwood and other dry goods. It is possible that the majority of that treasure could have been recover by the Spanish savors or other interested parties.

 

[jwvanno2]

Hello all.

I've been lurking behind the scenes on this board for a couple months, but as of yet, haven't had any real reason to post. Now, I'm really trying to find an answer to a question, and would ask for a touch of help...

I live in Rockledge, Fl and I really want to use my detector off the beach while SCUBA diving. Seriously, all I hope for is modern jewelry from the hundreds of people that play on our beaches, but something more interesting like discovering one of these missing wrecks would surely be a lucky day.

I've searched the board and the WWW in general, over a period of weeks, and have found scattered information concerning the Spanish shipwrecks around the Sebastian Inlet area. I even found the GPS numbers on this site for the wrecks, and a picture from somewhere (maybe here) that outlines the salvage areas. I found Wreckdiver1715's comments about the specific wreck locations in the post: http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,2920.0.html

I understand completely that you are not allowed to even consider taking a metal detector into the water in those areas, due to the salvage operations, but my question is this:

At what point North or South, is it O.K. to use a metal detector off the beach??

There isn't a wreck to the North side of the inlet, so is it O.K. to use a metal detector from the inlet north?

I don't want to even REMOTELY run the risk of being fined or getting equipment confiscated, but I do want to use the MD in the water freediving for rings and earrings or with SCUBA for something far more valuable.

Who knows... maybe one of these other wrecks that haven't been discovered are sitting in snorkeling water just waiting for that last inch of sand to be washed off!

Also, any hard links to the State pages or some other "official" site would be greatly appreciated! Something to print out and show Da Man, when he is standing in the surf as I exit the water...

Thanks guys and gals.

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Jwvanno2, first welcome to the forum and thanks for letting us all revisit this subject now that the 2005 summer dive season is in full swing (well, when the rain finally ends anyway). Your comments caused me to revisit the Florida Historical Commission, the Bureau of Archaeological Research, Division of Historical Resources web site. Wow! I am shocked at some of the changes that are posted since my last visit to the site. This does not appear to be good news for scuba diving relic hunters.
Effective 1 June 2005, the division has discontinued the isolated finds program. Removal of artifacts from sovereign submerged lands will no longer be allowed after that date; removal of artifacts from river bottoms and other sovereign submerged lands will be a first degree misdemeanor under ? 267.13(1)(a), Florida Statutes.
I am not entirely sure of the implications that we are now faced with. However, I will be doing more research and contacting Dr. Wheeler, the State Archaeologist and Chief of the Bureau of Archaeological Research next week for more details, and will post them as soon as I get a response from his office.

Stay tuned for more information

Q

 

[jwvanno2]

I heard about the "cancelation" of the Isolated Finds program a couple days ago from a friend, but still haven't completely understood it's implications...

Today I asked one of the state park rangers at Sebastian Inlet and another one at McLarty museum, the question above about how far north do you have to travel, before a metal detector is legal in the water.

Both of them told me that the ban covers the entire east coast of Florida!!!

Can that be right?!?!?!?!?!?!?

If anyone can find anything different, I'd LOVE to hear about it!!

 

[wreckdiver1715]

That is just so wrong. There is NO law or Florida statute that prohibits the use of metal detectors underwater in the waters of Florida. I have studied this subject extensively and have found no law prohibiting there use. The only restrictions are in the leased salvage contract arias (most very limited in size), Federal marine sanctuaries, and some state parks.
While the law now appears to prohibit the recovery of anything over 100 years old from state submerged lands without a permit (and you had better have a Dr. of archeology in your title to get the permit, or have one on your team), they have not yet banned metal detectors from the water.
There are some people up and down the coast who would have all of us believe that you can not venture into the water with your detector. Why, you may ask yourself. Simple, they hope to limit the number of searchers so that no one finds it before they do. I would challenge anyone who tells you that you can?t to show you the law. They can?t produce something that does not exist.

See you on bottom, and I will have Excalibur in my hand.

Q

 

[jwvanno2]

Wreckdiver1715,

I sure appreciate your input!!

So am I correct in believing that as long as I stay well away from the known wreck sites, I'm O.K. to dive with the MD??

I am willing to read the laws myself, and have read what I could find, but I've just never had it clear in my mind. You sound very professional and knowledgeable, and I truly thank you for sharing information with the rest of us. Specialy with new people like myself...

 

[jwvanno2]

I think I'm more confused than before I asked this original question!!

I asked this identical question on another forum, and I am now being told by someone claiming to be one of the salvager's that the ban does indeed extend the entire east coast...

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?p=1117867

I see your comments above about "scare tactics" but now, I am scared.

All I want to do is goof off, and maybe find a few bucks in lost jewelry or interesting artifacts, not go to jail...

Would anyone like to comment on metaldetector's comments on the scubaboard thread??

 

[jimfnc]

There has been some suggestion in this and other forums that the recourse for turning this around is thru the legislature. With a little clarification of exactly what the title of the legislation was, we need everyone to contact their legislator, not in some rant, but a rational discussion. If they have never heard our side of this, and only heard from the corporate salvors, they may not realize what they have done. On top of that, we need lobbyists. I have a customer who has to work with Florida's construction laws. He collects $35 each year from many hundreds of customers, and contracts a "part time paid lobbyist" to keep his views in front of the legislature, and keep tabs on pending changes. We needed to hear about this "before" it was voted on. Repealing is much harder.. btw - anyone collecting money for lobbying must adhere to some strict rules (name & address of all donors get reported to State). Vendors may back this else lose sales. It would even be best if they organized it.
In a totally separate topic - does anyone have track of exactly which beaches (or wreck sites) have been renourished?

 

[tanman58]

There has been some suggestion in this and other forums that the recourse for turning this around is thru the legislature. With a little clarification of exactly what the title of the legislation was, we need everyone to contact their legislator, not in some rant, but a rational discussion. If they have never heard our side of this, and only heard from the corporate salvors, they may not realize what they have done. On top of that, we need lobbyists. I have a customer who has to work with Florida's construction laws. He collects $35 each year from many hundreds of customers, and contracts a "part time paid lobbyist" to keep his views in front of the legislature, and keep tabs on pending changes. We needed to hear about this "before" it was voted on. Repealing is much harder.. btw - anyone collecting money for lobbying must adhere to some strict rules (name & address of all donors get reported to State). Vendors may back this else lose sales. It would even be best if they organized it.
In a totally separate topic - does anyone have track of exactly which beaches (or wreck sites) have been renourished?

 

[tanman58]

There has been some suggestion in this and other forums that the recourse for turning this around is thru the legislature. With a little clarification of exactly what the title of the legislation was, we need everyone to contact their legislator, not in some rant, but a rational discussion. If they have never heard our side of this, and only heard from the corporate salvors, they may not realize what they have done. On top of that, we need lobbyists. I have a customer who has to work with Florida's construction laws. He collects $35 each year from many hundreds of customers, and contracts a "part time paid lobbyist" to keep his views in front of the legislature, and keep tabs on pending changes. We needed to hear about this "before" it was voted on. Repealing is much harder.. btw - anyone collecting money for lobbying must adhere to some strict rules (name & address of all donors get reported to State). Vendors may back this else lose sales. It would even be best if they organized it.
In a totally separate topic - does anyone have track of exactly which beaches (or wreck sites) have been renourished?

I searched the cabin wreck today with my Excalibur 1000 during Tropical Storm Arlenes weak winds and waves and found 26 cents. Not much erosion.

 

[tanman58]

There has been some suggestion in this and other forums that the recourse for turning this around is thru the legislature. With a little clarification of exactly what the title of the legislation was, we need everyone to contact their legislator, not in some rant, but a rational discussion. If they have never heard our side of this, and only heard from the corporate salvors, they may not realize what they have done. On top of that, we need lobbyists. I have a customer who has to work with Florida's construction laws. He collects $35 each year from many hundreds of customers, and contracts a "part time paid lobbyist" to keep his views in front of the legislature, and keep tabs on pending changes. We needed to hear about this "before" it was voted on. Repealing is much harder.. btw - anyone collecting money for lobbying must adhere to some strict rules (name & address of all donors get reported to State). Vendors may back this else lose sales. It would even be best if they organized it.
In a totally separate topic - does anyone have track of exactly which beaches (or wreck sites) have been renourished?

Beaches with "new" sand-- I live in Melbourne and it seems that from Patrick AFB South thru Indialantic and Melbourne Bch have "new" sand.From Melbourne Bch South I'm not sure other than Bonsteel has new sand. Searched the cabin wreck today during Tropical Storm Arlenes weak winds and found 26 cents.

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Welcome to the Forum Tanman58. It is safe to say that the majority of beaches from Cocoa Beach in the North to Vero Beach in the South (including most of the known 1715 sites), have seen lots of beach reclamation projects in the wake of last years devastating hurricanes.
I understand completely the folks that pay the Fishers $1000.00 a year to hunt the leased sites don?t want any poachers moving in too close, and you really can?t blame them. They are a good bunch of folks, and I have dove with a few of them in the past. Most all of them know the rules of engagement along the coast, and as long as you don?t get too close to the leased sites you will be fine. But to say that metal detectors are banned from the waters along the entire East coast of Florida is just wrong. Once again, I have done my homework on this issue, and there is NO law or statute that prohibits metal detectors in the water, save the locations previously discussed.
I have made many dives over the years (with my Minelab Excalibur in hand) at the Chucks Steakhouse location with not much in the way of results, and some dives near Turtle Trail South of Wabasso Beach. As long you stay out of the leased sites you will not have a problem. I have never been challenged by anyone during any of my dives along the Space or Treasure coast. I must say that beach diving is a much more laborious endeavor than boat dives. You expend way too much energy with water ingress and egress from the beach. Boat dives are the way to go for this old man.

HH

 

[jimfnc]

Is there a published spec on where the leased sites are? Is this by knowing the beach area or by GPS? If I understand you correctly, you are saying that dipping into the water, as long as outside the lease areas is ok.

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Sure, go to the Mel Fisher web site, click on Leagel Issues and then on the 2003 season report, and scroll down to section II.
Or follow this link to it.
http://www.imacdigest.com/2003rep/Florida East Coast Shipwreck Project.htm

Q

 

[jwvanno2]

Wreckdiver1715,

Again, you have helped a lot, and I thank you for your time!

Maybe someday, I will meet you on the beach, and be able to thank you in person.

 

[billinstuart]

St. Lucie county and Martin county beaches also have had "renourishment". St. Lucie in particular did such a poor job they should, and probably will, be sued. Trucked in crap from near I-95 that was just plain dirt..too hard for the turtles to dig in. Martin dredged junk from offshore..recent article beach was sooo steep lifeguards had to help people out of the water. Colored beach south of Ft. Pierce has been pretty much screwed . Beaches at Wabasso in Indian River County have also been destroyed. Kinda like Pamela anderson, look good but there ain't nothing natural left.