1715 Ballast Pile Question

[ivan salis]

glad to help

 

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[Voldbjerg]

One thing struck me while readin jeff k's post - great post btw. When they measured 50 brazas(?) they fired a canon shot to communicate this. Would standard procedure not be to use signal flags to comunicate between ships in a fleet? Could this indicate that the fleet was spread out thin and visual communication not practical?

/V

 

[Salvor007]

Some food for thought:

1) good point Voldbjerg.

2) Ivan, By listing 4 of the '"missing" ships by name, you are assuming the ones that have been found have been positively identified. They have not. Therefore, it is impossible to know the names of the "missing" ships. I think people will be very surprised one day when some of the of the ships are positively identified and they differ from what everyone is used to reading in all the popular 1715 books. (none of which seem to agree 100% with each other)

3) I count 8 ballast piles associated with the 1715 fleet - Cabin Wreck, Cannon Wreck, Corrigans, HRD's lease area, Rio Mar, Sandy Point, Pepper Park (state archaeological reserve) and Douglas beach. Notice I presented them by location-not name. Weller lists a small ballast pile near the beach at Rio Mar which he attributes to the La Popa, but I have never seen this ballast pile in 33 years of diving the Treasure Coast, nor know anybody else that has. It could be a small scatter from one of the other 1715 wrecks or a later or earlier shipwreck!

4) There is no ballast pile or concentration of shipwreck artifacts at Chuck's Steak house....a mystery!

5) If a 1715 wreck did come ashore at Amelia Island, there should be quite a bit of documentation on it, being that it was "a large ship" and that is was so close to St Augustine. Surely, the Spanish would have investigated that, being so close to their city. There was no report that said "a ship from this fleet came ashore" only that a "large ship came ashore" so might it be possible that an English, French, Dutch or pirate ship was also sailing along the coast of Florida on July 31st, 1715 and succumbed to the hurricane?

 

[FISHEYE]

Voldbjerg,

In a hurricane with 100+ mph winds and 30+ foot waves.I would doupt anyone heard any cannon shots or could see any flag waving or lanterns swinging.the crew had more important things to due like trying to survive.Dodging falling rigging,masts,other flying objects.plus avoiding being washed overboard.And trying to steer clear of rocks and reefs with tatterd sails and possibly broken rudders.Maybe thier last resort was tossing out anchors.Just imagine yourself in the crews situation.what would you be doing?Dont say you would be loading your pockets with treasure.

 

[Voldbjerg]

After three days we arrived to the point we recognized as the mouth of the Canal de Bahama, and at nightfall we sighted Los Roques (Cay Sal). At sunup the nest morning we were off Los Martines, near the headland of La Florida. We continued sailing along the Cayos de Florida and mainland Florida, always with light and changeable winds, still holding reduced sail for the same motive of incorporating the Squadron of Echeverz which continually maintained itself at a distance from us. Sailing along in this manner we were not set upon by fresh winds from the ENE and, upon taking a sounding, soon found ourselves in 50 brazas of water depth. A cannon was fired as a means of advising this fact to the rest of the Flota. We then put on sufficient sail to take us away from the coast of Florida and to fain deeper water but we were unable to do this due to the currents which kept us close to the shore.

Fisheye,

I'm sorry but I read this as an incident that happened before the storm struck the fleet. Have I misunderstood the meaning of this?

BTW what is a Brazas?

/V

 

[Salvor007]

In Spain, I think a braza was about 5 1/2 feet. A braza was supposed to indicate the length of your outstretched arms, fingertip to finertip

 

[jeff k]

Braza. Fathom, a measurement of depth, equal to six feet. "Its true depth, or length was not uniform. It depended on the size of the seaman who made the measurement, especially during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. A sounding lead on a line was lowered and the depth established by the seaman pulling in the line. If he had short arms the fathom could be as little as 5.5 feet; if he had long arms it could be as long as 6.5 feet- the measurement was obtained by measuring the distance between the fingers of his extended arms," (Marx 1987:53-54).

http://shipwreck.net/glossary.html

 

[ivan salis]

as a old sea salt I know a bit about such things --- the spanish braza was a fore runner to the modern fathom (six feet) it was a fully streached arm span from finger tip to finger tip which due to the smaller build of people of days gone by was often about 5 1/2 foot to 6 foot it varied because of folks size -- the fathom is more "standardized" at six feet . --- basically 50 brazas was about 275 to 300 ft of water -- the old sailing vessels liked to stay off shore in deep water as they ran up coast of florida using the the outer edge of the gulf stream to move along up the florida coast---- because being near shore when a storm hit was deadly-- if they got too close to shore the gulf stream would basically "trap" them and hold them near the coast because they would have to cross the gulf stream to get back to the deeper water on the other side of it -- which in a sail vessel of those days in a storm was no easy task --- so if they were caught on the inside / shallow side it was very hard for them to easily get back to the deeper waters -- being caught in the shallow waters near shore made it easy for them to be blown into the shoreline by hurricane force winds -- which is exactly what happened in this case.

 

[FISHEYE]

Thanx ivan.I learn something new everyday.I thought a braza was what held up a womans breasts.Some of those spanish women were BIG.The braza held up would be 6 foot.

 

[Chagy]

Thanx ivan.I learn something new everyday.I thought a braza was what held up a womans breasts.Some of those spanish women were BIG.The braza held up would be 6 foot.

I think the word you were referring to is brasier which I believe is a Spanglish that came from the word bra....The real Spanish word is sosten which means to hold.....bit off topic here....

 

[Salvor007]

Maybe this is Ivan's shipwreck up at Amelia Island?

 

[ivan salis]

salvor 007 that is indeed ENGLISH source that I speak of --- its the PS from the end of the letter of written on oct 24 , 1715 from alexander spotswood of virgina to the british sec of state stanhope -- its been translated into modern english of course --the original was in the old form english and as such was had for most folks to understand ---yes its one of the two sources I used -- the other is a letter from the govenor of cuba to the viceroy of mexico dated oct 19th of 1715 -- with two differant letters from both the english AND the spanish govts and with both being from very high level govt sources of the time peroid and the later BRITISH map of amelia island from nov of 1769 made by capt william fuller for british owner LORD EGMONT showing only one wrecksite in NASSAU SOUND -- plus the fact its the only wrecksite of any kind marked on the map -- makes me think that I have indeed finally unraveled the 1715 fleet NAO SAN MIGUEL resting place.

 

[Salvor007]

Ivan: we are looking at the same information...but interpreting it differently I suppose. What I am reading above is that a small ship was sent from Havana to pick up some passengers of distinction from one of the salvage camps (reals), along with some of the recovered treasure, and that this ship became a shipwreck itself, ending up 40 miles north of St Augustine.

I did not read it as one of the 11 ships of the 1715 fleet came ashore at Amelia Island (Nassau Sound)

 

[ivan salis]

if the bark was recovering high postion folks lost in the 1715 fleet wreck to the south of st augustine why would it be 40 miles north of st augustine? (because thats a long way north of the wrecksites -- once it got the people and loot it would have went straight to to havana not northward )-- plus the spanish source says reports of the "wreckage of a large vessel (a bark was a smaller type vessel --unlike a nao) or vessels was reported on the shore about 15 leauges (39 miles at 2.6 miles to the spanish league) to the leeward (north) of this port" --(this port was st augustine --the cuban govenor was telling the viceroy of mexico about the news reports he had recieved from the st augustine salvage fleet ) -- in the worse case say it was merely a bark from the recovery fleet it would have had still had a good bit of silver and gold from the recovery of the fleets treasure as well as items of value from the important persons. plus note no survivors --so salvage was most likely not done as it was survivors normally who pointed out where the wrecks were at and nassau sound is horribile---its very tricky & shallow --a real nightmare to a 1715 salvage vessel -- plus they had the major wrecks to the south which were more important.

so the english report says about 40 miles and the spanish report says --15 leagues (equal to 39 miles) -- both would place it at / near nassau sound --plus there the 1769 fuller map as a kicker.

bottom line theres 1715 loot in nassau sound.

 

[rgecy]

It sounds like they had picked them up and were heading to St. Augustine and got caught up in a storm. If they were "passengers of distinction" I am sure they would have wanted to continue their voyage towards home and not backtrack to Havana.

Is it possible also that the ship could have had orders to continue on to Spain since the passengers were high priority and there was "plate" on board which would have been destined for the Crown anyway?

 

[ivan salis]

your take on it does make sense I agree --- so we are agreed on one thing 100% -- that there is a vessel that was carrying 1715 treasure that went down 39 to 40 miles north of st augustine according to the "offical" records of both the english and spanish govt --that would place it in nassau sound . and thats were the nov of 1769 map comes into play ---because the important part is there be treasure there that needs fetching . -- aaarrrgghhh --- Ivan

 

[mad4wrecks]

Rob, you are correct. The ship came from Havana. picked up wealthy passengers that survived the hurricane from the survivors camps, along with some of the recovered treasure...and was headed directly back to Spain.....when it sank at Nassau Sound.

 

[Chagy]

Its been said that the best research of the 1715 fleets was done by Dr. Eugene Lyon and Jack Haskins...
Dr. Lyon also thinks that the "San Miguel" is somewhere near Ameli Island.....

 

[ivan salis]

in plain words --- theres a wreck in nassau sound off amelia island that was carrying silver and gold recovered from the 1715 fleet as well as important people -- it sank with no survivors . -- it was recorded by highly placed people in both the english and the spanish govts of the time ----the records in their govt archives. -- thus it is historically documented * -- an added bonus that can show its exact location is on a map made in Nov of 1769 by the british capt willam fuller for Lord Egmont of england . the owner of amelia island at the time.--it show a wreck that had to be prior to nov of 1769 and its is the only "marked" wreck on the entire map of the island and its surrounding waters -- made 54 years later-- wayafter all the 1715 "players" who know of the wrecksite would have died off --so no one in 1769 really "knew" what the "wreck mark" on the old 1715 map meant in 1769 -- and so it was just transfered over unto the new map as it was being made . -----in 1715 the englishman spotswood knew where the wreck was at ( he had very good sources of info in the maritime world and most likely had a map with the exact location charted on it) and he very badly wanted to get his hands on it but it was in spanish waters and he woul;d not dare try it without royal ok (thus the PS on the letter --he was asking for stanhopoe to get the royal ok for him to do it) -- he would not act alone on this for fear of stirring up the spanish and restarting a war ( that could cost him his head) after all spain and england had just signed a peace treaty ending 4 years of war ---thats why the spanish 1715 fleet was sent to sea in the first place --- alexander spotswood wanted wealth -- he was the man who sent Lt Maynard after Blackhead hoping to get some of his treasure --when Maynard killed Blackbeard his loot was not onboard his vessel however --- spotswood was good at sniffing out chances to turn a buck with treasure--- his thinking was most likely who knows exactly how much was treasure found / and that a good bit could easily be skimmed before it was "offically" turned over to the crown --- plus there was his legal cut of what was found. --- corrupt politicans are nothing new you know. --- Ivan

 

[Chagy]

What was Amelia R & R looking for? Did they find anything?