1700's British Navy button. Partial Trade axe. Tinklers. Pistol butt cup?

[Aureus]

Hey everyone,

Just wanted to share with you some of the recent finds.

First a very nice Royal Navy 1700's button. Very surprised it survived so well. It's a first one for me of this type.




A few Native copper tinklers. Already found a couple in the past. These two are by far the smallest.



A partial Trade Axe. It's really sad it's not a complete one as it's shape is just awesome, it had a very large blade.



A possible butt cup from a pistol. It's made of iron which is unusual but I have seen a few non copper-brass types online. Found a few medium sized musket balls in the area so it seems to fit.






An unusual tool found a few feet from the Trade axe. From what I understood a possible chisel to remove bark from trees. The tool was buried in a vertical position with the rings still hanging from the handle.



Thanks for the comments.

 

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[Iron Patch]

Yes. Pretty hard to find out for sure. I have contacted a few people who specialize in military buttons and they all agreed on the term I used. But I agree, the documentation for those seems to be lacking.

They may specialize in some buttons, but no one does in all, and if they can't provide anything other than calling it Royal Navy... that means very little.

I would ask them these three questions.

1) Why do all 1700s British Navy have a rope or chain and these don't?

2) Why aren't they included in the Rev War book under British Royal Navy?

3) If they are post Rev War why aren't they in any reference material for the issued Royal Navy buttons that led up to the War of 1812.


Anyone who can say for certainty it's Royal Navy should be able to write a few words to sum up an answer for those questions. I had a friend from Ontario many years ago who was big into buttons and he called them Provincial Marine. So I have had three different IDs bouncing around in my head the last 15 years and have never heard what seemed like an answer with something to back it up. And again very weird because there is so many of these in the ground.

 

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[CRUSADER]

Yes. Pretty hard to find out for sure. I have contacted a few people who specialize in military buttons and they all agreed on the term I used. But I agree, the documentation for those seems to be lacking.

I've asked a leading collector of Royal Navy Buttons.

Cru'Dad did some digging & agrees;
''my inclination is it is a private Shipping Line rather than military''
Now whether you use the word 'merchant/private' or non-military (At least British) is up-to you.

 

[Aureus]

Great stuff as usual, really like that navy button

Thank you.

 

[Aureus]

They may specialize in some buttons, but no one does in all, and if they can't provide anything other than calling it Royal Navy... that means very little.

I would ask them these three questions.

1) Why do all 1700s British Navy have a rope or chain and these don't?

2) Why aren't they included in the Rev War book under British Royal Navy?

3) If they are post Rev War why aren't they in any reference material for the issued Royal Navy buttons that led up to the War of 1812.


Anyone who can say for certainty it's Royal Navy should be able to write a few words to sum up an answer for those questions. I had a friend from Ontario many years ago who was big into buttons and he called them Provincial Marine. So I have had three different IDs bouncing around in my head the last 15 years and have never heard what seemed like an answer with something to back it up. And again very weird because there is so many of these in the ground.

I'm curious to know if any of these buttons were found in a later sites (1812). If not they might predate the rope type Navy buttons. Also, if they are of merchant navy, has anyone found one of a large size. If it is indeed a merchant navy button, we should see those examples as well.

 

[Iron Patch]

I'm curious to know if any of these buttons were found in a later sites (1812). If not they might predate the rope type Navy buttons. Also, if they are of merchant navy, has anyone found one of a large size. If it is indeed a merchant navy button, we should see those examples as well.

They would have to date pre 1774, and there's zero chance of that. Whatever they are, that's the only size. Cuff, 13 0r 14mm.

 

[Aureus]

They would have to date pre 1774, and there's zero chance of that. Whatever they are, that's the only size. Cuff, 13 0r 14mm.

Can I know why there's 0 chance of that,just curious. Also, don't you find it strange that only cuff sized ones were found? What was used as medium and large sized?

 

[Iron Patch]

Can I know why there's 0 chance of that,just curious. Also, don't you find it strange that only cuff sized ones were found? What was used as medium and large sized?

Because I have at least 15 sites to go by where they were dug here. And if they were that early why not in the book? I'm not really sure why you are asking me if it's strange about the size because I have already said it twice.. yes I think it's very weird why only one size. But that actually goes against what you are arguing because if it was an issued Royal Navy button you'd think there would be coat and cuff, but is no coat size for these.

 

[Aureus]

Because I have at least 15 sites to go by where they were dug here. And if they were that early why not in the book? I'm not really sure why you are asking me if it's strange about the size because I have already said it twice.. yes I think it's very weird why only one size. But that actually goes against what you are arguing because if it was an issued Royal Navy button you'd think there would be coat and cuff, but is no coat size for these.

I'm not arguing for the Roal Navy at all. I don't understand why you got this impression. I'm just trying to evaluate all the possibilities. I have absolutely nothing to gain by attributing this button to Royal Navy or any other type of navy. Just trying to get as much information from the people having a bit more knowledge in the matter.
What I meant by asking you if you didn't find it strange there were no larger types found is it's impossible that none were. They might have been of a different design. That's all. It wouldn't make any sense to make anchor decorated cuff sized and make a plain medium and coat sized.

 

[CRUSADER]

I'm not arguing for the Roal Navy at all. I don't understand why you got this impression. I'm just trying to evaluate all the possibilities. I have absolutely nothing to gain by attributing this button to Royal Navy or any other type of navy. Just trying to get as much information from the people having a bit more knowledge in the matter.
What I meant by asking you if you didn't find it strange there were no larger types found is it's impossible that none were. They might have been of a different design. That's all. It wouldn't make any sense to make anchor decorated cuff sized and make a plain medium and coat sized.

Honestly, we would all love to put this mystery to bed. That is the people we are. Sometimes, it may take years or it may never happen, but we are the people adding the evidence & providing the clues.

 

[Silver Searcher]

I like the UKFD data base description for them...nautical uniform button, guess that covers just about everything.

SS

 

[CRUSADER]

I like the UKFD data base description for them...nautical uniform button, guess that covers just about everything.

SS

Yeap, at least it doesn't state Royal or Military...lol I like the UKDFD, & if they generalise, then there is your answer. No-one knows for sure - yet......(or at least we haven't found them)

 

[Ahab8]

Great finds as usual buddy. That button is a beauty regardless of the true id

 

[Aureus]

Honestly, we would all love to put this mystery to bed. That is the people we are. Sometimes, it may take years or it may never happen, but we are the people adding the evidence & providing the clues.

Yes I agree. Something tells me it will soon happen for this type. I sure hope so.

 

[Iron Patch]

I'm not arguing for the Roal Navy at all. I don't understand why you got this impression. I'm just trying to evaluate all the possibilities. I have absolutely nothing to gain by attributing this button to Royal Navy or any other type of navy. Just trying to get as much information from the people having a bit more knowledge in the matter.
What I meant by asking you if you didn't find it strange there were no larger types found is it's impossible that none were. They might have been of a different design. That's all. It wouldn't make any sense to make anchor decorated cuff sized and make a plain medium and coat sized.

It gives the impression you are arguing in favor of it being Royal Navy by in one post giving the thoughts of the two people who you say specialize in buttons, and they call it Royal Navy. And then in your 2nd last post questioning that maybe it predates the rope Navy buttons, which sounds like you were suggesting it's Royal Navy and predating them. If that's not what you were suggesting why would the date be relevant?

There's two things I am very sure of. These buttons date in the era of late 1700s/early 1800s, and as I said they are all small size, never a single one even being 16mm. All in the range or 12-14mm. Another interesting fact is there is slight variants, or there is something else out there that is extremely similar, as I've seen the anchors turn up in a slightly different way.


PS: Just in case... don't confuse my straight forward posts with the idea I'm somehow bothered about any of this. I'm just answering the questions and asking some of my own, which I would like to see answers to. Clearly there's no spectacular history to these buttons, but would be great to confirm what they are. As Cru mentioned this came up a while back, and they are new to you, but this goes back 15 years for me. That said, have I ever gone on a mission with an email campaign to try and find an answer.... the answer is no, I have not. That's why I still think there's a chance the answer is out there and I have just not come across it.

 

[Iron Patch]

Yeap, at least it doesn't state Royal or Military...lol I like the UKDFD, & if they generalise, then there is your answer. No-one knows for sure - yet......(or at least we haven't found them)

That's exactly what it means.


Here's something I just thought of, which actually does suggest a military affiliation. The person I know who has dug the most of these, and it's dozens, he seemed to do it off one real good area and was always with many Navy buttons. He was selling them all, and each week he'd have a new large group for sale, and the little ones in question were always part of the group. So I'd have to think they do have a close military connection at min.. Also, just about every where these have turned up for us here we have dug other military buttons at the site. Not that it means a lot, but I look at them as a good sign something better could easily show, and often does.

One thought... All the issued Royal Navy buttons are for officers. Maybe these were worn by the lower ranks, and that would make sense as they are the most common. It could also explain their small size and plain design - being made in a way as not to compare to a much higher ranking button. That's really the only thing that makes sense to me when I put all the facts, or what I perceive as facts, together.

 

[Ahab8]

Btw that butt cap looks to be fairly early. The sides got longer as time went on

 

[Aureus]

Great finds as usual buddy. That button is a beauty regardless of the true id

Thanks Abe

 

[Aureus]

Btw that butt cap looks to be fairly early. The sides got longer as time went on

Yes that's what I had as impression. By the way I have you to thank for this find. You posted yours a few days before I found mine. If it wasn't for your pic I would have never guessed what it was and would have left it there since it's iron.

 

[Z.K.]

I shall recuse myself from any polemic (I don't have the knowledge base or temperament for that) and stick with a simple appreciation for the museum you keep unearthing, and the humble way in which you consistently present your finds.

Cheers

 

[Aureus]

I shall recuse myself from any polemic (I don't have the knowledge base or temperament for that) and stick with a simple appreciation for the museum you keep unearthing, and the humble way in which you consistently present your finds.

Cheers

Thank you Ken.