1652 Massachusetts Pine Tree Threepence and more from virgin 1660 homesite!

[oxbowbarefoot]

What an incredible day at a 1660 virgin homesite in Massachusetts! My first find was a huge Brown Bess musket ball. Nice way to get the day started. My next target was the best find of the day, and one of my best finds ever, a 1652 Pine Tree Threepence! It's either a Noe 36 or a Noe 37 variety. Unfortunately the tree side is tough to make a definitive call. Either way, it's well over a $1000 coin��. Then came a sweet George I Farthing. Next find was an Abraham Lincoln related thing, not sure what it is yet. Right next to that was a colonial gold broach. After an early ox knob and a a bale seal came a great goulcher lock or dog lock off a musket or rifle. All in all, a fantastic day!

Thank you Dr. R.M. Gramly for the tip on the location!

Updates:
The Pine Tree Threepence is a Noe 36/Salmon 2-B, Rarity 4, only 75-200 known!
The "dog lock" was actually just part of an old cap gun, darn!
The Lincoln item is a ferrotype campaign button from the 1860 election

 

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[johnnyblaze]

Here's my conspiracy theory hypothesis (and by that I mean that I don't believe a word of what I'm about to say, and neither should you. But first, let me put on my foil hat).

-It's all about the number of clicks and views. As of this writing, this thread has over 5,000 views, and it's getting roughly 500 more every day. If it were to make banner, it would get a sudden spike in views, and the taper off. Perhaps the powers at be know that I have a tendency to bump Mass silver threads, mine or not, until they either make banner or I take a break from the forum to let my frustration simmer off. Maybe they know that because it's my find that I'm less likely to just abandon the thread and it'll live on page one indefinitely, serving as a consistent source of clicks.

Yes these are always a banner find..But i see threads get ruined talking about why a find should be banner,,Just vote and hope you make it!
Just connect the first 2 letters of your last word and see if it if they appear!

~Blaze

 

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[Ahab8]

If people stating facts about a finds rarity, value and historical importance somehow makes something not a BANNER there's a serious issue.

 

[HomeGuardDan]

Indian Head Cents, Mercury Dimes and Wheat pennies are also some of the most collected sets out there. They're cool, but not historic. People pay a lot of money for the key dates, not because they are rare (they're not), but because competition is tough.

A much larger percentage of Mass silvers are institution owned and are not going to be coming up at auction anytime soon. Advanced collectors don't often sell their higher end specimens either. Mine might not be a top grade for its variety, but it is better than average. For I were to grade it, I would have it at G8 or so, maybe G10. I'm not even sure it would get a details grade instead of a numeric grade. I don't see evidence of corrosion or environmental damage, and all the scratches are old. But I only have 60x magnification.

I know know that there are many factors that go into the banner decisions. Votes matter, rarity matters, aesthetics matter, and value matters. It appears as though the Threepence meets those, but perhaps some early votes were for both the coin and the brooch. When I first wrote this post the brooch was presented as colonial. I probably jumped the gun on that call, as it may be and likely is later. Maybe it's the "rare to the banner" Claus mentioned in the banner sticky. A Pine Tree Shilling did just recently leave the banner. Maybe it is that I have three Mass silvers, RhodeHog, Stealheadwill and several others have multiple Mass silvers and they don't have the same feeling of rarity as some others. I'm totally speculating on this, and no hint or communication has directed my speculation.

Either way, banner or no banner, I am far more interested in the historical significance of this coinage than its value or rarity. The site belonged to a very important family in Massachusetts history, and perhaps I will share that info with some or all of you once I've done my due diligence at the site.

I've seen more GW buttons dug and posted (and on banner) than these. Just saying

 

[acm3]

OMG!!!! I am drooling! Nice Finds. Super jealous.

 

[Dirtwisher]

Banner

 

[Scrappy]

A little anecdote for the date 1652 on the coin, and the one I believe to be true, "...In theory, these colonists had no right to strike their own coins, no matter how great their need.

But in 1652, there was no king. King Charles had been beheaded three years previously, and England was a republic. The people in Massachusetts may have cleverly decided to put that date on their coinage so that they could deny any illegality when and if the monarchy were reestablished."

 

[CASPER-2]

Funny you should mention percentages. On my Banner vote comments I mentioned that any Mass silver is rare, but this denomination and type is less often seen than others. At any rate it's a super-rate find.

I have personally seen about 40 tree coins over the years found and youre right 3 pence are least common - probably cause of their size - friend of mine found one last fall at a spot hit by 100s of hunters over the yrs - it was thin and beat - prob reason it was missed

 

[oxbowbarefoot]

I have personally seen about 40 tree coins over the years found and youre right 3 pence are least common - probably cause of their size - friend of mine found one last fall at a spot hit by 100s of hunters over the yrs - it was thin and beat - prob reason it was missed

how many of those have come out of the CT River valley vs other areas? I'm interested in how frequent they circulated in western mass.

I also wonder how many tree coins are found in comparison to hammered silvers or cobs in New England. Seems like hammered coins are dug a little less frequently and cobs a little more.

 

[HomeGuardDan]

how many of those have come out of the CT River valley vs other areas? I'm interested in how frequent they circulated in western mass.

I also wonder how many tree coins are found in comparison to hammered silvers or cobs in New England. Seems like hammered coins are dug a little less frequently and cobs a little more.

Ox, Bill and I talk about that all the time and I even brought it up a while back when I hosted the American Digger radio show. Currency is so interesting with the changes in geographic areas. Growing up in NC, cobs were tough to find and hammered coins were almost non existent. Still when looking at the common coinage, there for silver it was half and 1 reales (uncut) and coppers (predominately George coins). Here in SE VA, cut pistareens are the #1 common find, followed by cobs and digging a george copper (not Va Half Penny) are tough. Interesting how they change region to region.

Still, your coin is rare and has been on my want list for a long time!

 

[against the wind]

Incredible hunt, ,
Congrats

 

[oxbowbarefoot]

Ox, Bill and I talk about that all the time and I even brought it up a while back when I hosted the American Digger radio show. Currency is so interesting with the changes in geographic areas. Growing up in NC, cobs were tough to find and hammered coins were almost non existent. Still when looking at the common coinage, there for silver it was half and 1 reales (uncut) and coppers (predominately George coins). Here in SE VA, cut pistareens are the #1 common find, followed by cobs and digging a george copper (not Va Half Penny) are tough. Interesting how they change region to region.

Still, your coin is rare and has been on my want list for a long time!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who ponders these details. My specific interest would revolve around pre-1700 specie. Milled Spanish become much more common later on, even up here.

 

[CASPER-2]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who ponders these details. My specific interest would revolve around pre-1700 specie. Milled Spanish become much more common later on, even up here.

larger Spanish silvers were found more often yrs ago 70s & 80s - my friend hunts with a handful of old timers - none post
they try and hunt early 1800 spots and earlier - many of them have found 8 real cobs - pillar dollars and tree coins along the Ct. river infarm fields and around cellarholes
hey have got smaller denominations too but unless you can find a virgin spot - you'll have to settle for the smaller left overs
I get mostly 1/2 reals - half dimes and 3c pieces an occasional cut piece - small stuff you have to go slow to get
as for KGs - we get lots in New England I got a fair amount and don't hunt old spots as much as I should have - good example
and have told ox - man - his field of dreams - I drove by 100s of times years before (thru the 80s and 90s)
before he prob had a detector and told my friend we should hit there
and he always said "there's nothing there" - both kicking ourselves now
my friend has found 100s of coppers - his friends have even more than he does
no one knows about all the other tree coins - cobs etc found by those long ago - by those that have passed
by those that are loners and those that never post - I know a guy with cobs and tree coins that does not post
and he has a lot of cool colonial finds - Ive met others over the yrs that keep mostly to them selves - don't post
may lurk now and them - its a shame some of the stuff Ive seen found by others that you all will never see
and I'm sure you all have friends possibly with awesome stuff that we wont see never either
hope you all keep finding and showing the goods

 

[sutphin]

IM SPEECHLESS ...

 

[Scrappy]

If Sutphin is speechless, that's a banner find. My buddy Sut always has cool comments, so for him to not know what to say....well. Come on!

 

[joncooper1986]

Wow, awesome finds! congrats

 

[Scrappy]

larger Spanish silvers were found more often yrs ago 70s & 80s - my friend hunts with a handful of old timers - none post
they try and hunt early 1800 spots and earlier - many of them have found 8 real cobs - pillar dollars and tree coins along the Ct. river infarm fields and around cellarholes
hey have got smaller denominations too but unless you can find a virgin spot - you'll have to settle for the smaller left overs
I get mostly 1/2 reals - half dimes and 3c pieces an occasional cut piece - small stuff you have to go slow to get
as for KGs - we get lots in New England I got a fair amount and don't hunt old spots as much as I should have - good example
and have told ox - man - his field of dreams - I drove by 100s of times years before (thru the 80s and 90s)
before he prob had a detector and told my friend we should hit there
and he always said "there's nothing there" - both kicking ourselves now
my friend has found 100s of coppers - his friends have even more than he does
no one knows about all the other tree coins - cobs etc found by those long ago - by those that have passed
by those that are loners and those that never post - I know a guy with cobs and tree coins that does not post
and he has a lot of cool colonial finds - Ive met others over the yrs that keep mostly to them selves - don't post
may lurk now and them - its a shame some of the stuff Ive seen found by others that you all will never see
and I'm sure you all have friends possibly with awesome stuff that we wont see never either
hope you all keep finding and showing the goods

I always wonder about what's not posted....

That's wild man.

This three pence is still wicked rare!

 

[HomeGuardDan]

I always wonder about what's not posted....

That's wild man.

This three pence is still wicked rare!

Great insight

 

[oxbowbarefoot]

Great, now I'm in one of my "time-travel" fantasies again, where, along with my trusty Deus, I get to travel back to a time when all the ground was virgin. It's going to take me an hour to come back to reality.

Anyway, I'm fortunate to have met a few of the "old timers" over my years. I can't even imagine the piles of silver and coppers that must have come out of old town commons, school yards and the like. I've certainly heard stories of people finding things that if found today would be national news. I'm thrilled when I find anything colonial, but I have to work hard to locate good spots that haven't been hunted heavily.

 

[Scrappy]

Bump bump

 

[oxbowbarefoot]

Wow, awesome finds! congrats

Thanks, Jon! Hope we can get out soon, I've got a few places to show you.