1600s Portugese Hammered Silver Cruzado

[steelheadwill]

1600s Portugese Hammered Silver 'Cruzado'

Hi all,
Dug a few ships spikes, old buttons, hardware, functional reel, and a coin.
can't find a positive ID,
this one is about 38mm and 18 grams,
Crown over shield, splayed end cross.

Thanks to Iron Patch, SilverSearcher, and everyone else who contributed
we now know it's an undated 400 Reis Cruzado from the
reign King John IV of Portugal 1640-1656.
Thanks for looking and happy hunting All!

 

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[steelheadwill]

Re: Portugese Hammered Silver 400 Reis

Herby great find! Is there a solid date range?

thanks Jim,
won't be able to get a date til I get some more detail from the shield.
hopefully tomorrow. Will keep updating the progress.
HH all!

 

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[Iron Patch]

Re: Portugese Hammered Silver 400 Reis

Herby great find! Is there a solid date range?

I think about 1650, give or take a little.

 

[Mackaydon]

Re: 1600s Portugese Hammered Silver 400 Reis

I'm told my last entry refers to a link that is broken:
http://www.ioffer.com/i/1640-us-colonial-fleur-de-lis-counterstamp-on-1517-coin-149029485

If so, here is the description:
1640 US Colonial Fleur de Lis counterstamp on 1517 Coin

Description:

1640 US Colonial New France Billon Silver Issue stamped with a Fleur de Lis in a beade d oval, struck at the Paris Mint, on a 1517 French Francis I billon silver host coin (undertype).


Authorized by French Royal Edict of June 1640 for official export to New France: Louisiana, Mississippi, northern New England, Canada, and other French Colonies.


Listed as a Rarity-7, Vlack 1-f on page 10 of An Illustrated Catalogue of the French Billon Coinage of the Americas.


Walter Breen on page 47 of his Complete Encyclopedia of US and Colonial Coins, describes Breen#271 as "No date (1640) countermarked billon douzain. Rare. Fleur de lys in beaded oval. , countermarked at Paris Mint on various older billon coins (24-26mm)."


Unfortunately, not presently listed in the Redbook but mentioned in Breen, Vlack, and Canadaian catalogs.


It's listed in this manner on www. ioffer.com: Home > Buy > Coins & Money > Coins: US > Colonial Item #149029485

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: 1600s Portugese Hammered Silver 400 Reis

I'm told my last entry refers to a link that is broken:
http://www.ioffer.com/i/1640-us-colonial-fleur-de-lis-counterstamp-on-1517-coin-149029485

If so, here is the description:
1640 US Colonial Fleur de Lis counterstamp on 1517 Coin

Description:

1640 US Colonial New France Billon Silver Issue stamped with a Fleur de Lis in a beade d oval, struck at the Paris Mint, on a 1517 French Francis I billon silver host coin (undertype).


Authorized by French Royal Edict of June 1640 for official export to New France: Louisiana, Mississippi, northern New England, Canada, and other French Colonies.


Listed as a Rarity-7, Vlack 1-f on page 10 of An Illustrated Catalogue of the French Billon Coinage of the Americas.


Walter Breen on page 47 of his Complete Encyclopedia of US and Colonial Coins, describes Breen#271 as "No date (1640) countermarked billon douzain. Rare. Fleur de lys in beaded oval. , countermarked at Paris Mint on various older billon coins (24-26mm)."


Unfortunately, not presently listed in the Redbook but mentioned in Breen, Vlack, and Canadaian catalogs.


It's listed in this manner on www. ioffer.com: Home > Buy > Coins & Money > Coins: US > Colonial Item #149029485

Find a Francais Douzain, I bet it won't match. I have the Vlack book. The undertype makes a huge difference in rarity and price, and I actually know someone who just started working on a book for them. The coin in the link is similar to what I found... probably Henri IV undertype Circa. 1590-1610. Only mine was restruck in the 1690s. (15 Deniers)

There's actually non French coins that were used too, but are not common. Usually Spanish and English, but anything is possible, and new oddball stuff brings pretty big prices.

 

[testing123]

Re: 1600s Portugese Hammered Silver 400 Reis

Herbie, another cool find! Awesome! just awesome

 

[jewelerguy]

Re: 1600s Portugese Hammered Silver 400 Reis

cool coin

 

[VOL1266-X]

Re: 1600s Portugese Hammered Silver 400 Reis

EXCELLENT finds Herbie and I'm very glad to see you back. I was afraid you had gone into hibernation for the winter-LOL. Great relics and outstanding coin recoveries. HH, Quindy.

 

[HEAVYMETALNUT]

Re: 1600s Portugese Hammered Silver 400 Reis

AWESOME COIN! I'm dying to break into the 1600's. can't wait to see it cleaned up!

 

[dfx willy]

Re: 1600s Portugese Hammered Silver 400 Reis

this is one you will never forget herbie! very nice. willy

 

[Deepdiger60]

Re: 1600s Portugese Hammered Silver 400 Reis

Great old find for NE could be late 1500,s Jim

 

[steelheadwill]

Re: 1600s Portugese Hammered Silver 400 Reis

Thanks again all For the Replies and Help
I gave this piece about 60 seconds at 4.5 volts, began to see some bare metal and stopped the process.
IP, I believe this is a KM 52, see 3 dots between the arms of the cross,
POR visible to the lower left of the sheild.
Got the 400 on right and blank area on left where on the 19th century ones, 400 is on left and date on right, these also have a squared off bottom on the shield where mine is round.
as far as the images in and around the sheild,
I cannot see any more detail. do you think more time in the Electro will help or hurt?
About the Billon questions, got a little edge rub on my test stone, gave a blazing red result, this only occurs on .900 + silver.
Here's a load of new photos, as each shows a different section clearly.
I am VERY pleased to have retreived a Decent Colonial hammered silver or gold for each of my years detecting, The Passion is High Again

 

[steelheadwill]

Re: 16th C French Hammered Silver ?

IP's Id for a 400 reis looks a good call found this one with the similar o mark next to the sheild.

SS

Hi SS
I think the O you are referring to on your coin is part of the '400' denomination,
I see the entire number on both our coins,
Great Find there, and thanks for posting the photo, slight difference in position of legend around shield, I can see a few letters on mine, POR starting at lower left of shield, as in the #KM 52 example, yours is in much better shape , than mine or the examples in the book )
HH to you

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: 1600s Portugese Hammered Silver 400 Reis

Thanks again all For the Replies and Help
I gave this piece about 60 seconds at 4.5 volts, began to see some bare metal and stopped the process.
IP, I believe this is a KM 52, see 3 dots between the arms of the cross,
POR visible to the lower left of the sheild.
Got the 400 on right and blank area on left where on the 19th century ones, 400 is on left and date on right, these also have a squared off bottom on the shield where mine is round.
as far as the images in and around the sheild,
I cannot see any more detail. do you think more time in the Electro will help or hurt?
About the Billon questions, got a little edge rub on my test stone, gave a blazing red result, this only occurs on .900 + silver.
Here's a load of new photos, as each shows a different section clearly.
I am VERY pleased to have retreived a Decent Colonial hammered silver or gold for each of my years detecting, The Passion is High Again

I'd probably leave it and be happy. Better like that than really over cleaned.

There's no question it's early, all you have to do is look at the crown.

 

[birdman]

Re: 1600s Portugese Hammered Silver 400 Reis

I am seeing a lot of old coins being found in the states lately . Gives me hope. Congrats on the fantastic save and keep us posted!

 

[steelheadwill]

Re: 1600s Portugese Hammered Silver 400 Reis

Thanks again all For the Replies and Help
I gave this piece about 60 seconds at 4.5 volts, began to see some bare metal and stopped the process.
IP, I believe this is a KM 52, see 3 dots between the arms of the cross,
POR visible to the lower left of the sheild.
Got the 400 on right and blank area on left where on the 19th century ones, 400 is on left and date on right, these also have a squared off bottom on the shield where mine is round.
as far as the images in and around the sheild,
I cannot see any more detail. do you think more time in the Electro will help or hurt?
About the Billon questions, got a little edge rub on my test stone, gave a blazing red result, this only occurs on .900 + silver.
Here's a load of new photos, as each shows a different section clearly.
I am VERY pleased to have retreived a Decent Colonial hammered silver or gold for each of my years detecting, The Passion is High Again

I'd probably leave it and be happy. Better like that than really over cleaned.

There's no question it's early, all you have to do is look at the crown.

Same thought here Happy is what I am
oh if I could count the times I said ' I should have left it alone )
Thanks to all,
I think I got my 2012 coin of the year early, we'll see....
I grin whenever I think of the word 'Cruzado'

 

[Wallhangers]

Re: 1600s Portugese Hammered Silver 400 Reis

Congrats Herbie on another well-deserved find. I have been vacant from the site for quite a while due to work but hope to be at it again in a few months. Spending time in research that should pay off this Spring. Not sure if we are heading that way this Summer again but sure would like to. That coin should be up on the Banner!

 

[steelheadwill]

Re: 1600s Portugese Hammered Silver 400 Reis

Congrats Herbie on another well-deserved find. I have been vacant from the site for quite a while due to work but hope to be at it again in a few months. Spending time in research that should pay off this Spring. Not sure if we are heading that way this Summer again but sure would like to. That coin should be up on the Banner!

Thank You, it's gotta be pretty to get up top, and this one sure ain't
I feel my own banner whenever I look at it
Your welcome to explore this new site if you make it up again!
Best wishes to You and the Family

 

[Silver Searcher]

Re: 16th C French Hammered Silver ?

IP's Id for a 400 reis looks a good call found this one with the similar o mark next to the sheild.

SS

Hi SS
I think the O you are referringto on your coin is part of the '400' denomination,
I believe I see the entire number on both our coins,
Great Find there, and thanks for posting what I believe is an exact match.
(except that yours is in much better shape )
HH to you

If I remember right the Date from the site was late 1600s as IP stated, it's a Fantastic find for over there no matter what the condition...should be on the Banner

SS

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

Re: 1600s Portugese Hammered Silver 400 Reis

Great find, Will!

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

Re: 1600s Portugese Hammered Silver 400 Reis

Congrats on your 400 year old coin find Herbie!

No matter what you find man, it always seems to generate discussion and debate!

Take care buddy,
Dave