These Bars Should Not Exist!!!

gollum

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Jan 2, 2006
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Primary Interest:
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As the title suggests, using much conventional wisdom, the items mentioned in this thread should not exist!

The Church, The Society of Jesus (Jesuits), and historians like the eminent (and late) Father Charles Polzer SJ (Jesuit), all state without equivocation that the Jesuits' in Primeria Alta NEVER operated any mines. They NEVER owned any Silver or Gold (except what they got in trade for goods and services from the farms, or cattle the missions DID operate). They state that the Jesuits' main purpose for being in Pimeria Alta was to convert the local Indian Populaces to Catholicism.

Is it true?

To some, NO! To others, ABSOLUTELY? It's sort of like Peg Leg's Black Gold Nuggets. There are a lot of people who have heard of them, and many more people who haven't, and there are many who have heard about them, but don't really know any of the details. There have been people murdered over those blackened gold nuggets. I have seen countless articles that state absolutely that the stories told by Old Peg Leg were just more of his tall tales (and he was well known for telling whoppers). Then in the mid 1960s, these turn up:

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All the debate over whether or not they exist, now suddenly changes to "Where are they?" and "Where did they come from?"

Same thing with some Gold/Silver Alloyed Ingots (bars). A few years ago, I saw a picture (there was only one) of two "Silver Trade Bars" that were displayed in some museum (turned out to be The Arizona Mining and Minerals Museum). The card with them said they were on loan from a Ray Kopman. I searched everywhere I could find for a Ray Kopman. No Luck! I searched for any references to those "Silver Trade Bars". No Luck! I had pretty much given up hope on finding out anything more than they existed in one little picture.

Then, a few days ago, I was contacted on another forum by the current owner who asked me if I would be interested in acting as a broker, and trying to sell them for him. Needless to say, I said YES! I asked for whatever history he had on the bars, and better pictures. He provided both. For anybody who has seen the old picture of them, they look NOTHING like that! Funny thing about photographs.

Here is the old photograph:

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Turns out, that after speaking with the current owner, that these are not just Silver. They are 60% Silver, and 40% Gold (remember this fact as it will come back into play later). Here are better pictures of them:

The Kino Bar weighs 72.1 Grams, and measures 61mm x 25mm x 5mm
kinobar1pp5.jpg


The Altar Bar weighs 72.7 Grams, and measures 41mm x 36mm x 5mm
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I think that these two bars are historically significant, in that they represent something that according to many people should not exist. So, not only will I see about selling them for the owner, I think their story should be told as well.

Jesuit Mines?

Let's start with a quote from Professor W. Wrightson who was the General Agent for the Aztec Syndicate Mining Group. He was exploring the Santa Cruz River Valley looking for good mining sites. Now, I would think that a Mining Syndicate General Agent would be pretty well versed in most all aspects of mining operations. Pretty obvious to me. Let's hear what he says about one of the things he found when he visited the Mission at Tumacacori in 1860 (it was long abandoned by then):

To the east of this square of sumptious residences was an oblong building, where the metallurgical operations were carried on. Here are still the remains of furnaces and quantities of slag, attesting the purpose for which this was formerly used

Furnaces with slag are not indicative of lime or brick burning pits as stated by the NPS (National Park Service).

This quote is taken directly from the National Park Service Website on the Tumacacori Mission. You can read the full article here:

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/pinkley/pinkley_tuma/sec1.htm

Interesting huh?

Both Padre Kino's and Manje's Diaries speak of visiting mines. They don't specify Mission or Spanish. There were a rash of Indian Revolts over the years, due to the Indians mistreatment at the hands of their new Lords.

Back to the story of these two bars:

According to the owner (An Engineer for the Boeing Corporation), when Padre Kino died in 1711, these bars were given to a Yaqui Family. They kept them until approximately 1947, when the last member of that family (a man named Donkey), sold them to a white man he befriended named Ray KAPLAN (not Kopman, that's why I couldn't find anything out about him). They remained property of Ray Kaplan, and were displayed off and on in the Az. Mining & Minerals Museum as "Silver Trade Bars" (even though they contain 40% Gold) from 1947 until 2004, when Ray and the Museum Director assigned ownership to the current owner.

He (owner) states that many people have tried to buy the bars over the years, but Kaplan refused to sell, because the story from the Yaqui man was that these were actually the personal property of Padre Kino. True? Who knows. Do Kino's diaries say anything specific about owning these two, or any bars like this? Not that I know of. The owner has spent the last twenty-five years researching both Kino and these bars (Kaplan was a long time family friend). It appears that the Smithsonian owns a set of bars like these, but they are dated 1707.

Now, I suppose we need to get back to the subject of whether or not the Jesuits operated any mines in Pimeria Alta.

It is a well known fact that the Jesuits TAUGHT MINING SCHOOLS in the New World. Now, if the Jesuits stuck by the letter of the law (according to Charles III, they were not allowed to mine), they would not have owned or operated any mines. We know the Jesuits wouldn't do anything against the King's Laws would they? Why did they get expelled from the New World. Some say because of something the Jesuits were doing in Europe. One person says it was because they were going to assist the Dutch in taking the New World from Spain. Others say it was because the Jesuits were becoming too powerful and wealthy. They had the loyalty of the Indians (at that time), and wealth that made Spanish Governors jealous. Were they just expelled? Did the King just send a letter saying "Get OUT!"? NOPE! King Charles III in 1767 sent an Envoy to SECRETLY gather up all the Jesuit Priests and put them on a ship back to Europe.

Now, let's look at this a little closer. Why would the King want the priests' roundup to be kept a secret? Doesn't really make a lot of sense on the surface, if you believe that they had no mines. If the Jesuits were poor, what would be the need for secrecy? They couldn't run anywhere. They weren't being executed. Just kicked out of the New World, and sent home. Why the secrecy? No sense at all, UNLESS....................

You imagine for a moment that the Jesuits had mines in the far North of Pimeria Alta. Mines that were in direct conflict with what the King had ordered. Seems to me the only SENSIBLE reason to keep the Jesuit Roundups a secret, would be to grab them before they had a chance to hide something, or run away. As I have stated previously: They were not being executed, just shipped home. No reason to run there. Where would they run to? Further North, into the desert? Not likely. Once again, NO EXECUTIONS, just going home to Europe. Now, let's look at what they had to hide. Crops? Cattle? Converts? Those were all within their charter from the King. Nothing to hide there. Mines? Goes against the Kings Charter to the Jesuits. Large Scale mining operations, and none of the money going to the Crown would be a VERY GOOD reason to keep the Jesuit Roundups a secret. This way, the Spanish could catch the Jesuits before they had time to hide evidence of their mining operations. The King (after receiving reports of Jesuit mines), wanted to catch them with their pants down (so to speak). That is the ONLY good explanation I have ever heard for King Charles III to keep the rounding up of Jesuit Priests a secret. Only problem was, the Indians liked the Jesuits more than they did the Spanish. When they saw the roundups in the Port Cities, they quickly sent word to the Missions farther inland. This resulted in the Padres in Pimeria Alta Inland Areas getting about a six week forewarning. Plenty of time to backfill and bury mines.

Now, let's look at other reported findings of Jesuit Treasure:

In the late 1930s, a man named Milton Rose supposedly found a Spanish Mine right near the border West of Nogales, Az. Here are B&W Pics of some of the 800 or so bars of Silver, Gold, and Silver-Gold Alloy (and this alloy was only about 40% Gold).

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In the 1980s a man (let's call him Ron) and three friends found a total of 187 pounds of Gold Bars in roughly the same area. Due to his picture being shown in Treasure Magazine holding the bars, somebody dropped a dime on him to the IRS, and he lost it all (except the pics):

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Now, let's look at some common factors in ALL the bars:

>The Jesuit Cross and "V". This would denote that it belonged to the Jesuit Order.

>Some of the bars have the cross above a circle. This is the Spanish map Symbol for a mission

>Shapes. Most of the bars are small square and rectangular in shape. Some of the bars from Rose's mine were bar shaped, and stamped or had symbols cast into the ends.

THE ALTAR BAR:

The ALTAR Mission was in between The Tubutama Mission and the Oquitoa Mission at the end of the ALTAR River. That is the meaning of the TWO mission symbols (cross over circle) on the bar. The "X" marks the spot of the ALTAR Mission (between Tubutama and Oquitoa Missions). The word peseta (meaning little piece) most likely does not refer to the Spanish Monetary Unit PESETA. Most likely, since the Jesuit Bars come in two sizes (rectangular and square), that it refers to the smaller of the two sizes (little piece). Can't be certain though.

THE KINO BAR:

This bar shows the date 1697. This was the date King Charles III gave the Jesuits free reign over Pimeria Alta (as long as they didn't take anything from the crown). This is a very important date to the Jesuits, and may or may not denote the actual casting date. The name KINO is also cast into the bar. Does this necessarily mean that THIS bar belonged to Padre Kino? No. It is most likely an homage to him because of his importance to the Jesuit Order. There are also the letters "S" and "F" cast into this bar. These denote the Saint of Pimeria Alta "San Francisco" Xavier. And lastly, the cross over the circle Spanish Map Symbol of a Mission (with a "V" inside denoting a Jesuit Mission).

Now let's look at the possibility of them being faked. Except for the writer and photographer of the Rose Bars,nobody has seen them in modern times. Can't really say anything for certain about them, but there are pictures (see above). How about Ron's Bars in the 1980s? We have lots of pictures of them, and the Treasure Magazine Writer (who saw them) is still with us. Could "Ron" have faked them? Possible but not probable. I have it on good authority that "Ron" did not have the money to buy over 100 pounds of gold that would have been required to forge them (it was 187 pounds of alloyed bars). Not likely to have been faked there. Next, we come to our two intrepid little bars. Because they are the only two like them known to exist, I have to admit it is possible. The owner assures me they are not. He has (over the years) had them evaluated by the American Numismatic Museum, Smithsonian Institute (they asked him to donate them), and a few other coin and rare artifacts dealers. He has told me that there is a way of dating smelted metals. I don't know about that, so I can't say too much about it. I am currently contacting different people to verify what I can about what I know about them.

Personally, I believe them to be. authentic. Do I believe them to have personally belonged to Padre Eusebio Kino? I doubt it without some sort of written evidence in Kino's Diaries. I have seen none to date. Do I believe that the Jesuits Owned and Operated Mines in Pimeria Alta? ABSOLUTELY! I personally believe that the main reason for caches from Tayopa, Tumacacori, and several other Jesuit Missions has yet to be recovered (unless you believe Milton Rose when he states that above the entrance to his Spanish Mine was the name "PURE CONCEPCION"), is because most people don't believe in their existence, and because of that, will not spend the money necessary to recover them. Although the last named Tumacacori Mine (Virgen de Guadalupe) lies in the Coronado National Forest, and has been nearly found by a man named Gary Oliver (mineshafts backfilled with surface soil and smelting refuse of burned sticks and ash, as well as a 150,000 cubic foot tailings pile with no known mines in the area), who has been working the site since 1986.

Here is a satellite pic of the tailings pile (this is from space):

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Here is a pic of Gary Oliver standing in an excavated shaft that is backfilled with surface soil and ash:

9garyoliverinpithw2.jpg


Best,

Mike
 

Re: These Should Not Exist!!!

Mike,

"In the late 1930s, a man named Milton Rose supposedly found a Spanish Mine right near the border West of Nogales, Az. Here are B&W Pics of some of the 800 or so bars of Silver, Gold, and Silver-Gold Alloy (and this alloy was only about 40% Gold)."

Why did he "supposedly" find this mine?

I assume you have read his manuscript.....

Joe
 

Re: These Should Not Exist!!!

cactusjumper said:
Mike,

"In the late 1930s, a man named Milton Rose supposedly found a Spanish Mine right near the border West of Nogales, Az. Here are B&W Pics of some of the 800 or so bars of Silver, Gold, and Silver-Gold Alloy (and this alloy was only about 40% Gold)."

Why did he "supposedly" find this mine?

I assume you have read his manuscript.....

Joe

Yes, I have. I say "supposedly" because it was so long in the past, and there is nobody left alive who could have witnessed it. We only have his accounts, and the pictures taken by a third party photographer. I tend to believe it, because it meshes with other stories I have heard about the same area. It also meshes with modern recoveries (which I have promised not to talk about) in basically the same area (between Nogales and Tuscon West of the 19).

Mike
 

Re: These Should Not Exist!!!

cactusjumper said:
Mike,

No newspaper accounts?

Joe

Nope. All I have is a three part story of his account of finding the "Pure Concepcion" Mine of the Tumacacori Mission.

Mike
 

Re: These Should Not Exist!!!

Mike,

Well.....Never let it be said that Milton Rose might make up a good story. :)

As for Kino and his "ownership" of anything, there is this from Father Luis Velarde, the man who was his "companion for eight years and his successor at Dolores":

Father Kino died in the year 1711, having spent twenty-four years in glorious labors in this Pimeria, which he entirely covered in forty expeditions made as best they could be made by two or three zealous workers. When he died he was almost seventy years old."....
"He died as he had lived, with extreme humility and poverty. In token of this, during his last illness he did not undress. His death bed, as his bed always, consisted of two calfskins for a mattress, two blankets such as the Indians use for covers, and a pack saddle for a pillow. Nor did the entreaties of Father Agustin move him to anything else."

Despite those fine words, I believe Father Kino did own two shirts. I suppose all of us must succumb to the temptations of the world....at some time or another, even Father Kino.

Joe
 

Re: These Should Not Exist!!!

Yes, and had it been just the story, I would not have used it as a source. The pictures accompanying the story are the main reason. The fact that they fit nicely with known examples from the mid1980s cache, and these two as well also helped. They also mesh well with the other local finds that I am not at liberty to give the specifics to.

But like I said, I can't say much about the Milton Rose story other than the story itself, and the pictures. Once again, why I used the word "supposedly".

I can think of two good reasons for the story of Kino's Poverty.

1. He really did take his vows of poverty seriously. Instead of keeping anything for himself, he sent everything the Jesuits mined to Rome.

2. Kino died in 1711. If the truth about Jesuit mining activities came out, there would have been heII to pay in Seville. I don't believe that anything written at that time by any Jesuit would have said anything that would have cast doubt that the Jesuits were obeying King Charles III. Not that I believe any priest would lie to further the aims of the Order! ??? ??? ???

Best,

Mike
 

Re: These Should Not Exist!!!

Once again, it's like I mentioned in the first part of my post about Peg Leg Smith. He was a KNOWN liar. A HUGE liar! But as it turns out, his black nuggets are all too real!

Best,

Mike
 

Re: These Should Not Exist!!!

Absolutely fascinating...

The Kino silver bar should not exist.

I have seen one of those bars in a True Treasure magazine article in either late 60's or early 1970's. I do not remember the exact issue. I bought almost every issue on eBay a few years ago. When I read the article I immediately dismissed them as not being real.

Now in the published diaries of Kino he does mention the mining areas, in a general off handed way, that you talk about. But there is no mention of him ever possessing Silver bars.

However, that being said, as you are aware there are missing years. So it is possible they are mentioned in the missing years. The published ones deal with his earlier years in the area.

Also, although just because it is not mentioned in the diaries does not mean that he did not have them and use them. He may have not considered it relevant to mention it in his diaries.

Another possibility was a mine owner had them made specifically for him. It was common for mine owners to donate to the local missions.

Now in Kinos travels to Baja California he talks of trading items with Indians to get what he needed. He never mentioned gold or silver, but that does not mean he did not.

Are they real? I do not have a clue. But it is a most interesting topic.

As for the Peg leg part, I do not have a clue. There are others here that know more about that than me.

Good luck with selling them. I am sure you will do well. If you learn anything else interesting on this please post about it.

Lots of gold to you!

Eric
 

Re: These Should Not Exist!!!

Greetings,

Mike, please be careful in your enterprise, such a 'deal' may backfire on you. If such artifacts were not found on private land, for example, the government may make a claim against them - even the Spanish government might come out of the woodwork to file a lawsuit to try to get them. It has happened before. On the other hand, suppose the artifacts are nothing but fakes - then there could be prosecution on the grounds of having been a party to a fraud.

Good luck with your business venture my friend, I hope you use plenty of caution and come out with a tidy profit.

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

PS Our old pal Pegleg, that is the original frontiersman, was also a first class horsethief!
 

Re: These Should Not Exist!!!

Hey Roy,

I don't think there is a chance. I have voiced those VERY SAME concerns to the owner. He is not concerned in the least. He has document transferring ownership of them to his family. They have also been on display off and on since 1947. Nobody has yet to make a claim on them.

I think that since there are only two, there is not a lot of concern. If there were a cache of several hundred pounds, I think there may be more legal interest.

Best,

Mike
 

Re: These Should Not Exist!!!

Because of this post, I have been contacted by someone who had in his possession, some evidence regarding the Milton F. Rose aspect of the story.

I believe the person is who he says he is, and thusly, I tend to believe the information he has given me. I have promised him that I would protect his identity (as some people may know his name). He sent me pics of a letter written in 1972 from Milton Rose to Father C. Polzer SJ (both now deceased). Since both the writer and recipient of the letter are dead, I have no way to vouch for its' authenticity 100%, but much of the letter does make sense. I will post pics of the letter, and a transcript of it (it is kind of hard to read).

My take on it, is that there is a lot of sucking up going on towards Father Polzer (probably to get information), but it does show that his (Rose's) version of how he found the "Pure Concepcion" and got all those bars is fiction (if the letter is authentic). It does NOT show that the bars were in any way faked. Actually, it states just the opposite. It appears that besides the hundreds of silver bars he had, there were about 500 gold bars which he never found (a very good reason for lying about where he found them as there were still many more gold bars to be recovered).

Here is the letter:
 

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Re: These Should Not Exist!!!

Letter from Milton F. Rose to Father C. Polzer SJ 09 July 1972​

Dear Father Polzer,
Thanks for your very informative letter of July 4th 1972. I will be looking forward to obtaining copies of your Major article on the Jesuit involvement with Sonoran Miners in the seventeenth century. I want copies for myself and for a very good (the best) “Jesuit Educated” friend of mine. Autographed copies, I hope.
Does your work on article above have any connection with John Augustine Donohue SJ. Who is only one besides yourself, among modern Jesuit writers, that even acknowledges that there are treasure legends associated with the Society.
Inspite of my writings or stories I have always had “tongue in cheek” as to the involvement of the Jesuit Order and it’s missions in actual mining operations. Neither do I believe that there are “Lost” Jesuit Missions. Perhaps “LOST”, unaccounted for, or non documented Visitas. This latter due to the word “involvement.” I’m positive that

PAGE# 2​

Tayopa was neither a Mission or visita of the Jesuits. My original story printed in True West and later in Gold was some 80,000 words in length. This was cut by Editor Joe Small to what was actually printed, and the manuscript returned to me with copyrights on same for later use by me. Have not seen fit to put it into book form as yet.
I am doing triple research at present, and have learned a good deal. The big job facing mein a book, or books. The end point of my work. Not just a run of the mill book, but a classic. I hope I am up to it.
As to the Franciscans? They are a different Kettle of fish. Will not go out on a limb here unless some research pans out. If so, it will really be an addition to Arizona History, backed up by scientist-experts. So far everything is right on.
Have been doing some research on the bars. Have turned up a lot of forgeries that were not owned by me nor sold by me. One outfit in Florida made some, some came from an outfit in

PAGE# 3​

In Texas. Did turn up a few just like the ones I had, and was quite startled when I learned from whence they came. These latter bars came from a Yaqui Indian in Tucson, and were smuggled in from Mexico. They were all corroded and had the smell of death on them. All silver bars, no gold ones. All had KINO on them, and mostly the 1701 date. Mostly crosses and flat oblong bars.
During year 1961 I had some correspondences with J. Graydon Rank of the a_ _ _s (aries?) association of Los Angeles relative to some bars they had. I, of course, only viewed pictures of them which matched some of my individual pictures of the bars, and also the bars on my composite picture of all the bars I handled. Referred him to a man, a registered assayer, who could have authenticated the bars against a spectrograph that had been made on each bar. But, the assayer in question bowed out. Why I do not know, nor have found out from the man himself. Everything I did was done under the then existing Federal laws as to Gold and Silver, as I had obtained permits from the Fed. Govt.

PAGE# 4​

For all I did. Also all I did in Mexico was done legally as my Mexican :Lawyers can attest. Legal fiction is just as valid today in Mexico as it was in the years you speak about under the Spanish.
Spectrographs of the bars are as good as fingerprints on humans and for identification purposes. Also all bars that I sold cannot be duplicated even with modern methods. Forgeries of such are spotted. Old Spanish or Mexican smeltering practices is a lost art inspite of the voluminuous treatises on the subject by our former President Hoover.
I also has a “bean pot”, along with a mesquite stick that was in it, carbon dated by experts. Give or take five to ten years the date of the pot and stick was 1850. Date of massacre of mule train carrying the bars, according to the Papagoes, was roughly years 1846 to 1855. Total number of bars found was about 380 or roughly 90% of silver bars carried by the mule train. 500 gold bars carried by the train I have never found, but have done a lot

PAGE# 5​

More searching in the last two years- still no luck. Silver bars weighed from 12 to 16 avordupois _ _ _ _ _ _ Gold bars are supposed to weigh 12 lbs each.
Have not obtained or sold any bars for many years. Turned down the ones the Yaqui had for suggested reasons above.
Except for what passes between us on the subject, will probably forget I ever had anything to do with the bars. Thus letting the question of historic authenticity remain a moot one.
To lot of dyed in the wool treasure hunters, to decry a lot of “fabulously” wealthy “Lost Mines” and “Treasures” is like taking a stand against or decrying “motherhood.” I am going to do just that and try to cut the props out from a few of the most famous, nevertheless. This is gospel, and not soft soap for you.
One more item. The Mexican Archives contain some very old Spanish silver

PAGE# 6​

Bars that were removed from a man made cave in the barrancas of South Central Sonora in 1946. In my story I called this “Geronimo’s Cave”. I removed all the gold bars therein, and left the very bad low grade silver bars which the Mexican Government removed in 1946. Have made attempts to get pictures, etc., of the bars, but have met failure both times. Does this sound familiar?

Sincerely,
Milton F. Rose PE
 

Re: These Should Not Exist!!!

has anybody heard of this Mule Train Massacre that supposedly happened aroun 1846-1855?

AND BEFORE ANY LDM FOLKS SAY ANYTHING.....I KNOW THIS WAS THE DATE PERIOD OF THE PERALTA MASSACRE

Best,

Mike
 

Re: These Should Not Exist!!!

Hey Joe,

I just got a reply from Dr. Radding. I sent her pictures of the bars and asked her if she thought it possible or impossible that Jesuits engaged in mining operations in Pimeria Alta. This was the first line of her response (the rest referred me to the Ethnohistory Files at the UofAz):

Dear Mr. McChesney,

Your message is quite intriguing, concerning the Pimeria Alta. I do not know for sure whether the Jesuits actually engaged in mining in Sonora.

Doesn't sound as definitive as what you read does it?

Best,

Mike
 

Re: These Should Not Exist!!!

OKAY! WHO'S READY FOR ANOTHER PIC?

I was just sent this one by the same person who sent me the Rose/Polzer Letter. If you read the transcript, you will find a line that says "and also the bars on my composite picture of all the bars I handled"

Here is the composite picture of the bars Rose handled. Hows this for a variety of Spanish Bars?

Bes-Mike
 

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Re: These Should Not Exist!!!

I can't help but be in awe when I look at this picture.

GOD HOW I WISH IT WAS IN COLOR!

Anybody reading this who knows of the locations of any bars like this, please feel free to contact me. Your contact information will be kept strictly confidential.

Mike
 

SWR said:
A wide variety of never before seen bars of gold/silver. Highly suspicious.

Not really that suspicious SWR. Most land treasure recoveries are easily accomplished (once you have found the correct site). The vast majority of people who have recovered such finds keep them a secret. There is a not too large of a black market for such items (not too large because they don't happen all that often).

As opposed to finding an underwater treasure, where when you spend too much time anchored in one spot with the old Diver's Below Flag hoisted it draws a LOT of unwanted attention, where spending time in the desert where your only neighbors are rattlesnakes and coyotes.

Another reason for their rarity is that many times they are smuggled into the US from Mexico. If you read the transcript of the letter from Milton Rose, he states that there are extant silver bars of this type in the Mexico City Archives (at least there were in 1972, the date of the letter).

Best,

Mike
 

SWR said:
A wide variety of never before seen bars of gold/silver. Highly suspicious.

Also, pictures of some of those bars have been known since the late 1940s.

Best-Mike
 

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