The mystery of the lost Jewish golden Menorah (Lampstand)

[tintin_treasure]

I want to put this thread as it is a a topic of huge interest not only for the Jews but for people who are interested in Jerusalem as a whole.The value of the golden Menorah if found is priceless and could be put in the category of the 'ark of the Covernant'. For many Jewish and christian groups it has huge prophetic significance of Biblical proportion.
Concrete historic evidence show The second temple Menorah(seven branched Lampstand) along with other valuable temple artifacts were taken in AD70 at the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple .Then the robbed Menorah and the other treasures were paraded in the streets of Rome (triumphal march of Titus) . A Roman artist depiction of this parade is carved on the arch of Titus and can still be seen in Rome today. For some centuries the Temple treasures were displayed in Rome until the first sack of Rome by Alaric the Visigoth in AD 410. After that the Menorah and the other temple artifacts seem to disappear.Theories abound.Check this link for the Timeline and thoeries of the temple treasures

Timeline

One variation of the story inside the link is that some believe the Vandals ship which was believed to be carrying the Menorah and the other temple treasures actually sunk in the Meditreanean . Also besides what is stated in the link,there was an old legend among the Jews of Rome that the Menorah was secretly taken from its resting place in Rome by Roman Jews and thrown into the Tiber river that crosses Rome and could still be there. Infact in the 18th century under Pope Benedict XIV this legend was revived and a request was made to dry up the Tiber and retrieve the treasures underneath the Tiber( Note: the idea that the Tiber river hides treasures is not only believed for the Menorah but many in the past had believed old Roman treasures during various times might have been thrown in this river for safe keeping).But that request did not materialize.Here is an old post from 1930 on the case

Revive Legend That Menorah of Second Jewish Temple is Buried in Tiber River | Jewish Telegraphic Agency

As you read in the first link the other legend believed by Jews is that the Vatican has the Menorah , while other experts negate this claim.The search continues so does the theories.It would be good to hear if there are any fresh infos on this interesting topic.

tintin treasure

 

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[Crow]

Hello TT

A good clue is the Arch of Titus in Rome. Especially of what treasures taken.... You can see from inside the relief below



And picture since it has been restored.



A curious question along with the Menorah are the Romans carry the Table of the Showbread or the ark of the covenant??


Crow

 

[tintin_treasure]

Hello TT

A good clue is the Arch of Titus in Rome. Especially of what treasures taken.... You can see from inside the relief below

View attachment 1057829



And picture since it has been restored.

View attachment 1057830

A curious question along with the Menorah are the Romans carry the Table of the Showbread or the ark of the covenant??


Crow

thanks Crow. Yeah the Arch of Titus is a living evidence to this day and historical accounts also exist that the Menorah was displayed for several centuries in Rome.
I think the main Temple treasures taken from Jerusalem are the golden table of incense, the lampstand(Menorah), the crimson curtain , the Book of the Law and most likely the Table of showbread.Hence it could be the table of showbread seen in the picture.The ark of the covenant was not in the second temple (atleast,no biblical reference exists),It was in the first Temple before the first destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians. After that period its whereabouts is a mystery,again theories and claims abound and is another hot topic besides the Menorah.

tintin treasure

 

[Crow]

Hello TT I will stick with the Menorah for now..... Here is close up the Arch of Titus relief before restoration.



If we look back through history I was interested in seeing what could be found in historical representations of it. The earliest illustration is from the 14th century France in fact the trail might lead to France.

The Avignon Papacy was the period from 1309 to 1378 during which seven Popes resided in Avignon (modern-day France).[SUP][/SUP] This arose from the conflict between the Papacy and the French crown.

Following the strife between Boniface VIII and Phillip IV of France and the death after only eight months of his successor, a deadlocked conclave finally elected Clement V a Frenchman, as pope in 1305. Clement declined to move to Rome, remaining in France, and in 1309 moved his court to the Papal enclave at Avignon where it remained for the next 68 years. This absence from Rome is sometimes referred to as the "Babylonian Captivity of the Papacy".[SUP][/SUP]( strange trem is it not? especially when it was the first temple was destroyed by the Babylonians?) A total of seven popes reigned at Avignon; all were French, and all were increasingly under the influence of the French crown. Finally in 1377 Gregory XI moved his court to Rome, officially ending the Avignon papacy.


However, in 1378 the breakdown in relations between Urban VI and the cardinals gave rise to the "Western Schism" and a second line of Avignon popes, though these are not now regarded as legitimate. These became irrelevant with the end of the schism in 1417, though Pope Benedict XIII the last Avignon pope, had not resided there since 1403. The Following Document is from between 1309 and 1378. It shows the following below.....



Crow

 

[tintin_treasure]

Hello TT I will stick with the Menorah for now..... Here is close up the Arch of Titus relief before restoration.

View attachment 1057835

If we look back through history I was interested in seeing what could be found in historical representations of it. The earliest illustration is from the 14th century France in fact the trail might lead to France.

The Avignon Papacy was the period from 1309 to 1378 during which seven Popes resided in Avignon (modern-day France).[SUP][/SUP] This arose from the conflict between the Papacy and the French crown.

Following the strife between Boniface VIII and Phillip IV of France and the death after only eight months of his successor, a deadlocked conclave finally elected Clement V a Frenchman, as pope in 1305. Clement declined to move to Rome, remaining in France, and in 1309 moved his court to the Papal enclave at Avignon where it remained for the next 68 years. This absence from Rome is sometimes referred to as the "Babylonian Captivity of the Papacy".[SUP][/SUP]( strange trem is it not? especially when it was the first temple was destroyed by the Babylonians?) A total of seven popes reigned at Avignon; all were French, and all were increasingly under the influence of the French crown. Finally in 1377 Gregory XI moved his court to Rome, officially ending the Avignon papacy.


However, in 1378 the breakdown in relations between Urban VI and the cardinals gave rise to the "Western Schism" and a second line of Avignon popes, though these are not now regarded as legitimate. These became irrelevant with the end of the schism in 1417, though Pope Benedict XIII the last Avignon pope, had not resided there since 1403. The Following Document is from between 1309 and 1378. It shows the following below.....

View attachment 1057836

Crow

thanks Crow it is interesting. To just Brainstorm on different perspectives.

If the Menorah ended ultimately in the hands of the Catholics in France ,,,,

1)it could be after the Byzantine invasion of Carthage where some assumed the Vandals took it in the second Sack of Rome in AD455(assuming the Menorah survived the first sack of Rome by the Visigoths in AD 410).Then the Byzantines took it to Constantinople then again to a Church in Isreal...check the timeline link I posted earlier and the alleged triumphal march in Constantinople.This could be the context where the later Catholics ultimately got it from the assumed church in Israel (if they got it) and it might have ended in France ( if it ended there).(Note: I am not suggesting the Byzantines were Catholics)

2)It could be after the first sack of Rome by Alaric the Visigoth(AD 410), because Alaric died shortly and he was buried with some treasure in South Italy on his way south.Then his followers instead went to Gaul and settled in present day France ,it could be that they took the Menorah (instead of burying it with Alaric) to Gaul and ultimately found its way to the Catholics later on..

3) The Menorah may not have left Rome somehow and later the Catholics found it and found its way to France

The above three are the likely theories we could conjecture if it ended in France(I am not saying it ended..if it ended).The theory of the Vatican possession of it may or may not be linked to the French connection(if the Vatican has it ..and if it was in France)

BUT and a big but...we also have to give room to the possibility that the depiction of the Menorah in a catholic document does not necessarily warrant the trail or possession of the ''Jewish Menorah'' as there is a Christian spiritual interpretation of the seven branched Lampstand( see the spiritual depiction of the seven churches in the book of Revealtion 2-3) where the glorified Jesus is portrayed standing amidst the seven lampstands(Revealtion 1). Hence such a christian spiritual version of the lampstand could be the reason of depicting the figure of the Menorah in a catholic document(without being related to the actual hardware Jewish Menorah).

tintin treasure

 

[Crow]

Hello TT there are many possibilities....And no it does not mean that Menorah is in France either that is one possibility of many? All three of worlds biggest faiths do have much in common by the Old testament. Quite a treasure for anyone to get thier hands on it.

The following work by Fray Juan Ricci (1600-1681), sketch of the menorah as described in Exodus, undated. Biblioteca Statale del Monumento Nazionale di monte Cassino. Italy. If ya look at the sketch ya will see similar type of drawing ? its quite possible there it was a copy the 14th century book?



By the 15th century the papacy was well back in the Vatican. However there was some rebel popes from time of the Western Schism. Avignon has its own treasure legends of a great treasure hidden by the French Popes. when they departed the Carthusian took over the French Popes old palace. Carthusian Monastery of Villeneuve les Avignon was there called Chartreuse du Val-de-Bénédiction in Villeneneuve les Avignon (Gard) (1356-1792) Finally they themselves was expelled from France in 1792. What you might find of interest Avignon was a strategic settlement and river crossing during the Visigoth empire.



Yet there is evidence that the french Popes left behind a great ancient treasure? Does it mean part of Visigoth treasure perhaps part of treasure from Jerusalem, Perhaps even the Menorah?

Crow

 

[doc-d]

Certainly the Tiber would be an excellent choice to seek treasures given it's history……

The Tiber was critically important to Roman trade and commerce, as ships could reach as far as 100 kilometres (60 mi) upriver; there is evidence that it was used to ship grain from the Val Teverina as long ago as the 5th century BC.[3] It was later used to ship stone, timber and foodstuffs to Rome.
And certainly it's use for shipping existed both before and after the Roman period…

A question about the true purpose of the dredging noted below…..as if often the case, perhaps the true purpose was not the stated and known purpose….

Several popes attempted to improve navigation on the Tiber in the 17th and 18th century, with extensive dredging continuing into the 19th century. Trade was boosted for a while but by the 20th century silting had resulted in the river only being navigable as far as Rome itself.[3]

 

[Crow]

Hello Doc some good points. It is one possability that the Menorah ended up in the river during the sacking of Rome.

Crow

 

[tintin_treasure]

Hello TT there are many possibilities....And no it does not mean that Menorah is in France either that is one possibility of many? All three of worlds biggest faiths do have much in common by the Old testament. Quite a treasure for anyone to get thier hands on it.

The following work by Fray Juan Ricci (1600-1681), sketch of the menorah as described in Exodus, undated. Biblioteca Statale del Monumento Nazionale di monte Cassino. Italy. If ya look at the sketch ya will see similar type of drawing ? its quite possible there it was a copy the 14th century book?

View attachment 1057844

By the 15th century the papacy was well back in the Vatican. However there was some rebel popes from time of the Western Schism. Avignon has its own treasure legends of a great treasure hidden by the French Popes. when they departed the Carthusian took over the French Popes old palace. Carthusian Monastery of Villeneuve les Avignon was there called Chartreuse du Val-de-Bénédiction in Villeneneuve les Avignon (Gard) (1356-1792) Finally they themselves was expelled from France in 1792. What you might find of interest Avignon was a strategic settlement and river crossing during the Visigoth empire.

View attachment 1057855

Yet there is evidence that the french Popes left behind a great ancient treasure? Does it mean part of Visigoth treasure perhaps part of treasure from Jerusalem, Perhaps even the Menorah?

Crow

Thanks Crow.It is quite a serious lead to consider ... . I wonder what data the alleged researchers from the university of Florence used to reach the conclusion that the Menorah might be in the Vatican prompting the Isreaili gov to ask the Pope about it some years back as described in the link below. The Vatican denies it and some experts have negated this theory...
POPE ASKED TO RETURN TEMPLE MENORAH

By the way two tips about the Menorah

-The Menorah that was taken in AD 70 to Rome is another Menorah made for the second temple as the first original Menorah that was in the tabernacle of Moses and later put in the first Temple was lost during the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem.

-The Menorah taken by Titus had a solid base built for it for transportation purposes as seen in the picture on the arch of Titus.But before AD 70 the Menorah didnt have a solid base but a tripod similar to the picture Crow posted earlier. Hence whenever we see a picture of a Menorah with tripod it is depicting the pre AD 70 Menorah, if it is with a solid base it is post AD 70 Menorah.

I also agree with both doc ad Crow that the Tiber river is the first place to check.It might hide not only the Temple treasures but countless Roman era treasures where people threw thier treasures during war times.Look an old newspaper link below

Reading Eagle - Google News Archive Search

tintin treasure

 

[Crow]

Hello doc and TT

The Tiber in 1905 was dredged and many treasures was found. As per this 1905 newspaper story below. If they had found the Menorah it would of created a sensation. Sadly there is no evidence of the menorah being found.



Of course it could still be in the riverbed or elsewhere?

Crow

 

[Crow]

Professor Professor Ciro Nispi Landi instigated the search in 1902 when he claimed many such treasure would be found on the bottom of the Tiber river. As reported in this 1902 newspaper story below.



Crow

 

[tintin_treasure]

thanks Crow for these old clips.. Sure as Tiber crosses a long path in Rome with bridges over it even in olden days there must be many treasures underneath thrown from the bridges. We dont know if it includes the Menorah but it is worth a lead.

tintin treasire

 

[Crow]

it might be of interest to hunt down a book by Professor Ciro Nispi Land. however I only know one or two words of Italian.

Here a picture of the book written I think in 1907?



It might give us a clearer picture of what was salvaged from the Bed of Tiber?

Crow

 

[tintin_treasure]

thanks Crow ,it would be an important doc for Tiber.

tintin treasure

 

[tintin_treasure]

check this recent news post of last month from Israel ,about the Menorah controversy of claims and counter claims and one Israeli professor research.He has an upcoming book on the subject to be released from Harvard University ,good to check out as well.

The Myth Of The Temple Menorah And The Vatican Exposed By Leading National Newspaper ? With The Help Of YU Professor, Class - FailedMessiah.com

tintin treasure

 

[Crow]

Interesting article however it does show how much passion accusations can be made from Assumptions. A lot of history has passed since the loot treasures of Jerusalem came to Rome. Many leads to follow and many questions unanswered.

Crow

 

[tintin_treasure]

Interesting article however it does show how much passion accusations can be made from Assumptions. A lot of history has passed since the loot treasures of Jerusalem came to Rome. Many leads to follow and many questions unanswered.

Crow

what seems weird to me is how come researchers from the University of Florence bought the 'vatican myth' discredited by the professor and other experts.There was a news that they fueled fire to the myth years back.

p.s.I wonder if the the professor and his upcoming book ever considered your Papal/Avignon/Visigoth connection

tintin treasure

 

[Crow]

Hello TT with the treasure of Jerusalem in which it is collectively known. There is many theories from various parties. Some have agenda some do not. In case of the professor he highlighted one of many. Hardluck actually did quite a bit of research into Avignon story. Is there buied treasure at Villeneuve Les Avignon?

By no means he thinks that and older treasure of Jerusalem is connected however he does say it is possible....


Crow

 

[tintin_treasure]

thanks Crow. Ofcourse Jerusalem related treasures legends are many including the Knights Templars treasure, the whereabouts of Ophir (the mysterious land with goldmine from which King Solomon brought gold),Ark of the Covenant, Copper scroll etc etc..They all are fascinating and unfortunately diverse theories abound related to them.

I will check Hardluck's take on Avignon.thanks for the link.

tintin treasure

 

[Crow]

Hello TT its my pleasure. however it is just one possible path of many.

Crow