TIRED of Folks Trying to RUN MY LIFE

[ScubaDetector]

Folks this is just a legal rant concerning the legality of detecting and the police. I posted on here and another website and some want to condemn me for my actions.

First some history. I was a state police officer when my parents were killed by a guy on drugs that hit them head on after he went over a double yellow line. He got 6 months in jail for killing two people. After that I got cynical and cuffed and stuffed every drunk that I pulled over. I was forced out of the department. I refuse to open myself to criticism as this was over 25 years ago and yes I could have done somethings different but I didn't and I am still here and loving life.

I do NOT care if the police are called on me. If people want to stick their nose in my business that is their problem not mine. I am polite to EVERY officer UNLESS they give me an attitude right off the bat. I GLADLY give one back.

Last Sunday was NO exception. I am diving in a place that is illegal to dive from the letter of the law. You have to have permission from the Detroit Harbormaster in order to dive. LAW HERE:

Swimming and underwater diving; prohibitions. (Detroit River)

(a) A person shall not swim, bathe, or engage in underwater diving operations outside of buoyed and designated swim areas, except when authorized by the city police department harbormaster.

(b) This section does not preclude bona fide commercial salvage diving operations, and emergency and recovery operations by any law enforcement agency.

(Ord. No. 40-97, § 1, 11-26-97)

Not only did I have permission from the Detroit Harbormaster Sgt., I also had permission from the State Police that run the island and the State Conservation officers. I have been diving 4 - 6 days a week all summer since May 31'st in this spot.

Sunday the Wayne County Sheriff patrol boat came well within 200' of my dive flag. I heard an engine in my area and came up to see what JERK didn't know the law. Here is a Sheriff boat with it's lights on. He gets on his PA and demands I get out of the water. He also threatens me with a 500.00 fine. RIGHT OFF the BAT Doesn't talk to me THREATENS. I motion for him to come over and he won't listen to me. One of them grabs my dive flag and takes it. I GO BACK DOWN. I play around some more and guess what? I really piss him off.

I come back up and he is in shallow water going against the seawall. I walk over and he is fuming. Reading me the law and calling the Harbormaster. He refuses to listen. Well the harbormaster came out and said I was getting a citation. He said I only had permission for one day and I brought this on myself. We will see about that one. That is not the case.

I write this because I am being condemned by some. EVERYONE on here deserves to follow the rules as they understand them without ridicule or condemnation. IF I get a citation and I lose in court then the law has spoken. IF NOT, Nobody was in my shoes and nobody has the right to run my life. I am 59 and I know what cops think they can do because I was one.

I go out and find things. It is my life. I highly doubt any legislation will change because of one guy sticking up for himself. If any of you have a run in with the law, you are allowed to do what YOU feel is right within the law. You can leave like they ask, you can try to talk sense into the officer or you can be hard headed and fight back if the officer feels he has the power to throw his badge in your face. I do the second and if I have to, I do the third.

I have NEVER been to jail and don't intend to go there. We have rights within the law. I am going to stick up for mine. You all do what you wish, I won't bash you or say you were stupid for following an officers unlawful demands. PLEASE give me the same courtesy. If you feel I am stupid for talking back to a bully with a badge, so be it. However, blasting me on a public forum is absolutely your right, and some will agree with you. BUT in the end, the law will either treat me fair or I will lose because city ordinances are made for collecting revenue period. I will go down fighting for my rights.

END of RANT. Everyone stay safe and have fun with your life. You only have one to live.

Always be yourself. The people that matter don't mind AND the people that mind don't matter. PEACE

 

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[100acre]

Personally I'm sick of regulation, fines and fees. America- home of the fee, land of the slave.

 

[SeabeeRon]

Thanks for sharing this recent experience Scuba!

 

[digger460]

Behind ya all the way Scuba

 

[Terry Soloman]

As a past LEO, you know that fighting the law is a losing proposition, and from your posts it seems (to me) that you look forward to these encounters, and may even be manufacturing them unconsciously.

I have a lot of years of therapy behind me for service connected PTSD. Here is my advice. I suggest you see your doctor and explain your feelings of loss, frustration, and anger you are experiencing. Anger will end up killing you just like a drunk driver, or a self inflicted gunshot. I smoke weed. Some take Klonopin, and some are able to meditate. Get help, and do what works to get your inner self in balance.

Peace and Love Brother!

 

[releventchair]

My only question is the harbormaster stating it was only a one day permission,as far as legality.
Your evidence of permission ,and it's terms to present to court.

As far as your attitude of not looking to cause trouble but being willing to meet some one half way who is , that remains your choice.
Two parties , and both zealous of their differing positions results in conflict. As we know ,some arguments need a court.

I'm not judging or being unsupportive but the case seems to hinge on the proof of permission , and it's terms of length.
Good luck.

 

[cudamark]

Folks this is just a legal rant concerning the legality of detecting and the police. I posted on here and another website and some want to condemn me for my actions.

1. You can leave like they ask, 2. you can try to talk sense into the officer or #3. you can be hard headed and fight back if the officer feels he has the power to throw his badge in your face. I do the second and if I have to, I do the third.

I have found that #1 works all the time. #2 seldom works, and # 3 never works. I start with #2 and resign myself to #1. I then go home and confirm my research and right to detect a particular site. Armed with that research, I either talk to the governing agent about the wrongful booting, or if the rule is vague and subject to interpretation, I wait to detect another day and time when that "officer" is probably not on duty, and try again. I wish you good luck using #3's method. I think those unreasonable LEO's love those sorts of confrontations. They know they're going to win and it strokes their ego. Staying calm and reserved with good legal arguments frustrates the @#$% out of them, but, what can they do? You're complying with their request, so, they can't really justify doing anything further. Anyway, you get to fight another day without a record of tickets/fines/arrest.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Scuba, thanx for relating your most recent adventure. I loved reading your prior takes -on all these issues, your hunts, etc... We are standing behind you on this one

.....

To expand on what Terry is saying: Idon't believe it's meant to be patronizing or condescending. Instead think of it this way: Sometimes in this life we have to give .... uh ... "lip service". If our ultimate goal is to be able to detect as many cool-places as possible , then sometimes you have to play their game (even though you might have every right to "stand your ground"). Then, although temporarily stroking their ego, and even if "they're in the wrong", yet in the long run , you get back to your cool hunt site.

 

[BARKER]

Hi Scuba; My gal was killed by a drunk driver in 1999. I applaud your actions. Me, Don't let me catch a drunk driver. I "WILL" become their Worst hangover for sure. I will make sure they end up in a Cell. I promise.!!! I agree with your actions in this matter and wish you the best.
I did security for 14 years and I've met them ALL. Including LEO's with attitudes. I had one that kept threatening my Aunt. He lived next door to her I made several calls. They ALL knew him as Tommy. That truly was his nickname. Well one day he got in my Aunts face yelling and swearing.I was there and went down to deal with him. He started in on me. He called me a Fag & then pushed me. In the meantime my Aunts Daughter had called 911. They showed up and literally saw him pushing me. They came out of the Cruiser. He was like , "hi guys" to them. They cuffed him. I pressed Charges against him for A&B and I threatened a Civil Rights Lawsuit to which I had Witnesses. The short of it. He agreed to Resign from the Force, Move away from my Aunt and stay away from Us. As bad as I wanted too I agreed not to press my Lawsuit. I got what I wanted. Him gone. Now when I'm near my Aunts house all the LEO's say hello. They are happy he is gone as well. That was a Win - Win situation. All because I stood up to that Clown.
Stand up to them nicely but don't let yourself get bullied. Hang in there. PEACE:RONB

 

[Terry Soloman]

I am saying that I hope all of this works out for SD. My heart aches for the losses he has suffered in his life. That is what I am saying.

 

[Honest Samuel]

# 1. I feel your pains. There are cops who believe that I am stupid because the way I talk, many like to harass me, but I stand up for myself.

 

[BARKER]

Hi Terry; Don't worry. we know. To ALL who have suffered the loss of a loved one because of Drunk Driving or Stoned Driving or Talking & Texting May God Bless You All & Yours. SD I definitely understand where your coming from. Let Us know how you make out ok. May God Bless Us All.
Honest Samuel; Next time they or ANYONE harrasses you make sure you get a small tape recorder now and record everything they say. Then the next time they harrass you just record the conversation. Make sure you verbally add the time, Date, Officers Names to the Recording ok. Then you can just tell them point blank that you are going to sue them for violating your Civil Rights. Then make sure you contact your local Anti-Defamation Organization and Report it. They will take it from there. BUUUUTTTT You "MUST" put the time,Date & Officers Names on the Recordings "ALWAYS." ok. They have NO RIGHT to harrass a handicapped Person such as yourself. That BURNS me for sure. DON'T let it just go away ok. You have the Right to Protect yourself and recording them or even videotaping them WILL put a COLD stop to it ok. Any problems I'll be glad to help you. Just PM me ok. PEACE:RONB

 

[Loco-Digger]

Nice to see you get that off your chest Scuba. Cool off, it was just a moment, life goes on.

"You can't always get what we want... But if you try sometime you find,... You get what you need" (had a stones flashback).

In my town there is only one officer who has confronted me while detecting, all the other's simply pull up and ask if I am having any luck? I knock on wood since I was only confronted once by that officer in the 28 months I've been detecting.

 

[ScubaDetector]

I know I open myself to critism on here and other forums when I post my adventures. Terry #1. I am NOT angry at all. I only get defensive when I get threatened by police that have NO idea what they are talking about.

Funny thing here. This happened Sunday. Today Friday I just got home, still no citation? I am thinking another EMPTY THREAT by the police. I don't understand why some cops have to be bullies when all I am doing is enjoying my life. Not hurting a flea.

We all know laws are meant to protect people from being stupid. Why no diving in the Detroit River? Possibly get hit by a boat? They don't want people in the shipping channel? I am in 6 - 7 foot of water and the fishing pier goes out in the water farther than I go out. No boats EVER come that shallow. well except for the police boat. We also know there is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. It is illegal to dig in a park. Why?? They don't want people taking plants and leaving holes. SURE you land detectorists can get a citation. BUT WHAT COP WOULD?? They see how you dig a target and put the ground back without a trace. Some cops have a BRAIN and they use digression. Others not so much.

Some THINK with their badge they can push people around. They don't know what to do when someone fights back. And since they think they are authority nobody should ever question them.

No Terry, I am not angry with anybody. Sure I got upset when they tried to intimidate me. That is one reason I went back under the water too cool off. LOL that really ticked them off. I have never had high blood pressure, I love life.

I made this post because of all the armchair detectorists that feel they have the right to criticize me and put me down. Sure it is their right. It is my right to ignore them. I do have to admit, most the flack I have received was somewhere else.

IF I don't see a citation tomorrow, guess where I will be soon? This is going to be solved one way or another. Either I get my day in court or I go back and play where I have been making a killing. Threats from police are meaningless to me.

 

[Bugalooob]

Detroit is the most drecrepid city in America and their worried about diving there, you've got to be kidding me......Id ask harbormaster how he got his job,corruption most likely along with the other so called officals that are harassing you....its like the most corrupt city in the nation

 

[ScubaDetector]

As a past LEO, you know that fighting the law is a losing proposition, and from your posts it seems (to me) that you look forward to these encounters, and may even be manufacturing them unconsciously.

I have a lot of years of therapy behind me for service connected PTSD. Here is my advice. I suggest you see your doctor and explain your feelings of loss, frustration, and anger you are experiencing. Anger will end up killing you just like a drunk driver, or a self inflicted gunshot. I smoke weed. Some take Klonopin, and some are able to meditate. Get help, and do what works to get your inner self in balance.

Peace and Love Brother!

Terry, you are so absolutely wrong on this. I have fought and won plenty of times. I have some absolutely funny stories also. The ONLY citation I have ever received that stuck was for changing lanes on the highway without using my directional. Three citations I have got while diving have all been dismissed. So why is me fighting for my rights in this case a losing proposition?

I am NOT looking for trouble while detecting. I am looking for peace. MOST officers have been fantastic and have talked CIVILLY to me. The ones that wear the badge and THINK they cannot be wrong and feel superior are the only ones I have ever had an issue with. Last month when the harbormaster police boat talked to me they were absolutely civil and polite. We parted ways with them saying OK, NOT taking any of my information and me having a wonderful dive.

Sunday when the sheriff DEMANDED I immediately get out of the water and if I don't I will get a 500.00 fine WITHOUT wanting to listen to me, that is where the problem lies. I am out there at least 4 days a week. I know the laws inside and out when it comes to private and public lakes, trespassing and riparian rights. COPS have NO clue who I am and what I know. I get some that talk very civilly and I can educate them. They are very friendly and appreciative. I get others that think they can shove me around. They are the problem not me.

Angry hardly. Knowing my rights and sticking up for myself. you better believe it.

Even the harbormaster said I could have left Sunday and and come back whenever I wanted but I caused the problem myself by fighting back. MAYBE he is right. BUT he was the problem by not telling the sheriff boat that he did give me permission.

 

[Deft Tones]

Drop a dozen dive flags into the water anchored to the bottom and put a big sign up on the river bank...."Detroit Dive Team Meeting Today".

 

[Tom_in_CA]

..... It is illegal to dig in a park. Why?? They don't want people taking plants and leaving holes. SURE you land detectorists can get a citation. BUT WHAT COP WOULD?? They see how you dig a target and put the ground back without a trace. Some cops have a BRAIN and they use digression. Others not so much. ......

Scuba, let me reply to your above comment. And remember: I/we love your posts of your scuba md'ing adventures on the forums. So don't take this wrong:

Regarding those other cops you infer "don't have brains".... re.: the "holes" issue. You're right in that, if the land (turf) md'r fills his holes and leaves no trace, then logically, he's not hurting or harming anyone. And yes: Most passerby cops are not going to trifle with this, and/or recognize that so-long as you're not leaving your hole, then you've fulfilled the intent of the law. Right ?

But put yourself in the shoes of the passerby (cop or city worker, etc...) : Even though it's true that YOU know you're above to "leave no trace", how do THEY know that ? For all they know you'll be sloppy about it. And also put yourself in their shoes: even if it's true that you'll cover and leave no trace, yet the NEXT yahoo out there with a detector might not be so careful. So if they allow scuba or Tom_in_CA out there, they will have a hard time explaining to the next yahoo how they can't be "digging holes". In other words, they become "babysitters" all-the-time differentiating which md'r is "neat" vs the next one who isn't so neat.

So let's be dreadfully honest: What's the easy solution for the cop or city worker? : To just say "scram" to any md'r. Right ? EVEN THOUGH YOU'RE TECHNICALLY RIGHT, you've got to put yourselves in their shoes.

Thus when this "holes" thing comes up for me, and I find my explanations (that I've going to leave no trace) falling on deaf ears, I just give lip service and leave. And then come back and hunt that particular place after night-fall. So peaceful. So serene. Yes I know you're hobby of scuba is perhaps not possible to "do on the sly" like that (can't scuba in the dark). But just saying to be open to how the other person is thinking, and of the job they have to do.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.....Some THINK with their badge they can push people around. They don't know what to do when someone fights back. And since they think they are authority nobody should ever question them......

Scuba, think back to when you were a cop: Not an easy job, right ? Sometimes you had to make decisions in-the-field, for odd-ball things you encountered on the street, right ? And as such, you know there are laws written broadly, so-as-to- apply to a myriad of things that might arise. For example: Laws that forbid annoyances. Yes vague and arbitrary. But it's impossible to write laws that can *exactly* apply to every single thing that might arise in the field.

THUS YES: Some laws are written broadly, so-as-to allow cops to get their jobs done. Is it rather whimsical and capricious ? Sure! But w/o a little wiggle room written like that, the bad guys would be FOREVER arguing with cops in the field. No cop could ever get his job done.

I'm not saying that there isn't some truly erroneous power-trip cops out there, that have over-stepped the bounds of applying how they think a law should apply. But on the other hand, put yourself in their shoes. And as a past cop, you know how a little respect will go a long way in getting that cop to relax his stance.

 

[Terry Soloman]

Terry, you are so absolutely wrong on this. I have fought and won plenty of times. I have some absolutely funny stories also. The ONLY citation I have ever received that stuck was for changing lanes on the highway without using my directional. Three citations I have got while diving have all been dismissed. So why is me fighting for my rights in this case a losing proposition?

I am NOT looking for trouble while detecting. I am looking for peace. MOST officers have been fantastic and have talked CIVILLY to me. The ones that wear the badge and THINK they cannot be wrong and feel superior are the only ones I have ever had an issue with. Last month when the harbormaster police boat talked to me they were absolutely civil and polite. We parted ways with them saying OK, NOT taking any of my information and me having a wonderful dive.

Sunday when the sheriff DEMANDED I immediately get out of the water and if I don't I will get a 500.00 fine WITHOUT wanting to listen to me, that is where the problem lies. I am out there at least 4 days a week. I know the laws inside and out when it comes to private and public lakes, trespassing and riparian rights. COPS have NO clue who I am and what I know. I get some that talk very civilly and I can educate them. They are very friendly and appreciative. I get others that think they can shove me around. They are the problem not me.

Angry hardly. Knowing my rights and sticking up for myself. you better believe it.

Even the harbormaster said I could have left Sunday and and come back whenever I wanted but I caused the problem myself by fighting back. MAYBE he is right. BUT he was the problem by not telling the sheriff boat that he did give me permission.

I still think we should get together and smoke a bowl.