the Charing Cross connection

[lokiblossom]

Sorry, New Gold, that is not an accurate account of this exchange. I have given up trying to explain to you and LokiBlossom that a 20th century map showing 14th century London with a feature labelled "Charing Cross" (modern evidence) is not the same as the phrase "apud CharingCrosse" in a medieval document (contemporary evidence). The reason I mentioned all those places is because LokiBlossom rashly claimed that Temple Church and Charing Cross were "very close" and "there was very little standing between the two sites". Both these statements were incorrect, hence the list of properties as you walk from one to the other.

Now New Gold, you really are confused. I am sure you both agreed right back at the beginning of this topic, that Charing meant a bend in the river. So why suddenly start dragging in Dear queens when it suits you? Puzzling.

I assume, New Gold, you are an adult and live in the free world so you can believe whatever you like. But so can I. I believe that the stories of the Templars and Mary Magdalene awash on the internet are a modern myth. In this godless world, some people still need to believe in some over-arching plan. Templars does it for some, not for me. You are posting on a public forum so must expect to provide proof if asked. What you describe are modern sentiments, not medieval.

Charing Cross existed as Charing Cross in 1300, and even a few years before, this is a fact shown by maps drawn by well known historians.

Charing Cross and Temple Church are 1300 yards apart as measured by Google Earth.

The only object that stood between Temple Church and The Charing Cross was the Savoy Palace, built sometime after 1246. The Savoy Palace was not in line between Temple Church and Charing Cross, again by Google Earth, therefore it would have been
possible that Templar Knights could have watched the memorial being built from where they lived. I missed the Savoy Palace as it was built nearly a century after Temple Church, and I had information that only fields existed there at the time. But the fact is the Palace did not obstruct the view.

Yes, I said that prior to Eleanor's death the bend in the River Thames at that point may have been called Cyrringe, but as I also mentioned by 1300 it was called Charing Cross. All of these points are fact.

What is not fact but a premise of mine (and that is in my first statement on this thread) is that the Charing Cross in Nova Scotia is called by that name in reference to a Beloved Queen brought to Nova Scotia by the Knights Templar in 1308. Whatever it certainly is a reference to the Charing Cross in London.

 

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[lokiblossom]

I assume, New Gold, you are an adult and live in the free world so you can believe whatever you like. But so can I. I believe that the stories of the Templars and Mary Magdalene awash on the internet are a modern myth. In this godless world, some people still need to believe in some over-arching plan. Templars does it for some, not for me. You are posting on a public forum so must expect to provide proof if asked. What you describe are modern sentiments, not medieval.

Oh, and the Knights Templar are a fact. I can also provide proof of this if you wish.

 

[Smithbrown]

Phew. Who's edgy now?

Now, can you give me the earliest reference to the place name "Charing Cross" in Nova Scotia, please?

And I do know the Templars are "a fact" as you so quaintly put it. They just didn't go to the new world.

You certainly missed a lot more than the Savoy Palace. 1300 yards? why, that's almost a mile.

 

[lokiblossom]

Phew. Who's edgy now?

Now, can you give me the earliest reference to the place name "Charing Cross" in Nova Scotia, please?

And I do know the Templars are "a fact" as you so quaintly put it. They just didn't go to the new world.

You certainly missed a lot more than the Savoy Palace. 1300 yards? why, that's almost a mile.

I just named a historian, one of many who place the name in 1300 AD.

I had said a 1000 yards earlier as a ballpark figure, I might change it in my book as the difference is 900 ft.

What did I miss besides the Savoy Palace?

Wow, I guess I think they did get to the New World following Viking routes. They certainly left France didn't they?

 

[Smithbrown]

So Charing Cross in Nova Scotia was already called Charing Cross in 1300? Wow, that is early. And your reference is?

I actually listed the properties existing in the Middle Ages on Fleet Street/Strand.

You're not wring a book, are you? You haven't read enough other books. All this is just posturing.

I don't know that they did leave France. And, you know, leaving France does not automatically mean going "to the New World following Viking routes". Many, many people left France, right through the Middle Ages, most of them did not go to the New World.

I made a mistake, didn't I? I assumed you were adults. I am suspecting you are a pair of school kids. Enjoy the education.

 

[lokiblossom]

So Charing Cross in Nova Scotia was already called Charing Cross in 1300? Wow, that is early. And your reference is?

I actually listed the properties existing in the Middle Ages on Fleet Street/Strand.

You're not wring a book, are you? You haven't read enough other books. All this is just posturing.

I don't know that they did leave France. And, you know, leaving France does not automatically mean going "to the New World following Viking routes". Many, many people left France, right through the Middle Ages, most of them did not go to the New World.

I made a mistake, didn't I? I assumed you were adults. I am suspecting you are a pair of school kids. Enjoy the education.

I gave my references, and as far as I am concerned they are good enough.

You might have listed properties but you didn't give any references as to when they were built or torn down or actually anything that you seem to require of me.

I'm going to ignore that one.

There are documented references as to them leaving France, and strong evidence that they wintered in Scotland.

I should ignore this one also, but I will ask what gives you the right to belittle someone, especially someone you don't even know.

As soon as you supply those references for the properties that stood between Temple Church and Charing Cross in 1307 I will discuss them with you.
But right now I'm going out to get have a few beers, cheers! Loki

 

[Smithbrown]

References, LokiBlossom? So far all I have heard is one 20th century book of maps, a catholic encyclopaedia and google earth. You hadn't heard of Loeb, had you? You really need to read it if you are seriously writing on medieval London.

Have a nice weekend, kids.

 

[New Gold]

^Smithbrown

 

[jeff of pa]

Keep things on topic & Friendly !

 

[lokiblossom]

Keep things on topic & Friendly !

I think I'm doing quite well!

 

[Eldo]

View attachment 1094429

This is the original that it was named for.......

 

[Smithbrown]

No, Eldo, that's a 19th century copy which is in front of Charing Cross station. The original site of the Charing Cross is under Trafalgar square now, further west. The 17th century equestrian statue of Charles I marks the spot.

 

[Eldo]

No, Eldo, that's a 19th century copy which is in front of Charing Cross station. The original site of the Charing Cross is under Trafalgar square now, further west. The 17th century equestrian statue of Charles I marks the spot.

My apologies.....noticing the layout now......and the mistake of flipping from web to images on my search gave me a switcheroo that I didnt notice.......left me with a selection of the modern imitations.....LOL

Tourist Traps......LOL

 

[lokiblossom]

References, LokiBlossom? So far all I have heard is one 20th century book of maps, a catholic encyclopaedia and google earth. You hadn't heard of Loeb, had you? You really need to read it if you are seriously writing on medieval London.

Have a nice weekend, kids.

I really don't have a lot in my book about medieval London, but I am curious as to why you can't produce the names of all the properties that you say existed between Temple Church and Charing Cross in 1300. My information says that the only building at the time was The Savoy which I will now add in, and if you could prove there were others I still have time to correct.

 

[Smithbrown]

I listed a good many on the eastern side of the Strand and Fleet Street on message number 37. The properties at the west end of the Strand include more bishops' palaces- Norwich, Durham, possible Carlisle and the chapel and hospital of St. Mary Rounceval.
I don't know why you can't give the date of the first recorded use of the place name "Charing Cross" in New Ross, Nova Scotia.

 

[New Gold]

"It was not originally a village, but a location, and after its removal in the early 16th century the name remained as a memory with the indigenous population and was passed by word of mouth to the arriving white settlers."

Loki, do you have anything to add?

"A deeper conspiracy of silence is suggested with Bradley asserting that the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Fitness was aware of the ruins and that unnamed forces within the government agreed that "some things should never be officially admitted" (Bradley 1988:77).

Bradley claims he was further advised not to publish his research by a retired Canadian military colonel who stated that the story of the New Ross site was known at "high levels in Europe and North America" (Bradley 1988:77).

As a final note, he contends that in 1982, the Nova Scotia Museum had on display a diorama depicting Henry Sinclair landing in Nova Scotia and that the display has since been removed (Bradley 1988:373).

The current Manager of Collections has stated that he doubts the existence of any such diorama at the museum (D. Christianson, email to author, October 25, 2011)."

Interesting reading for sure, and a good brush up on the Charing Cross story.

I think it's possible the name Charing Cross was also chosen in order to maintain secrecy in Europe.

Any reference made by a Templar of Charing Cross would be heard to an outsider as referring to the Charing Cross in London.

http://www.smu.ca/academics/name-70836-en.html

 

[lokiblossom]

So Charing Cross in Nova Scotia was already called Charing Cross in 1300? Wow, that is early. And your reference is?

I actually listed the properties existing in the Middle Ages on Fleet Street/Strand.

Sorry I misunderstood your post and thought you were still referencing London. What New Gold posted is my premise almost exactly. Caroline Leopold in her very interesting "History of New Ross" 1966, states that "Charing Cross, the central section of New Ross received its name in the early days of the settlement of Sherbrooke. The name is usually shortened to the cross." Joan Hope had said that the local natives told her it was in their memory always called "Charing Cross".

As for your list of buildings between C.C. and Temple, except for Savoy did not exist when the Eleanor memorial was erected. At least that's what my information tells me. If you could find some kind of proof that they did I would be grateful.

 

[Smithbrown]

I gave you the reference. Try reading the book.

 

[lokiblossom]

I gave you the reference. Try reading the book.

Yeah, thanks but I already know the answer.

 

[Smithbrown]

I have given you the author, title, publisher and date. Please give us the same information related to your information. Then we can make comparisons on the authority of the sources.